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Thread: DOJ memo: Drone strikes on U.S. citizens can be legal

  1. #31
    Member ezthumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LHS View Post
    I have no qualms about drone striking non-citizens OCONUS. Zero. But as soon as they start to justify whacking US citizens just because they say so, and with no independent review or requirement to present evidence as to the necessity of whacking those citizens, I get nervous.

    What concerns me is the work and purpose they put into the program to justify the use on "US citizens" with out a very clear line where they will not cross. It is open ended, as they can at a later date justify the use based on what they view as hostile or whatever they feel justifiable.

    You would think, being as smart as they claim to be, they would know this is going to stir up the natives. And they would have a conversation that would include.."hey shouldn't we put in something that would let our citizens know, that we have check and balances and we would not indiscriminately level someones house based on some open ended profile?"

  2. #32
    Member Corlissimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    ...Maybe Obama is a low point. Maybe he's the beginning of something horrible.
    THIS sums up nicely the "gut feeling" that's nagging at me. Thank you for the distillation!

    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    The only thing that has ever really posed a threat to dictatorial intentions of politicians:

    The voting public.

    Yeah, I know. Doesn't give me the warm fuzzies either. But even the voting public should be able to process the difference between drone-striking someone who went to fight for the other side in a war and using predator strikes to take out drug dealers in Detroit.

    ...not that you'd be able to tell that a drone strike happened in Detroit.

    Wait...
    Oh yeah... Isn't that the same voting public who just OK'd four more years of Pres. EO-bama? I feel so much better now. (Sarcasm not directed at you TC, my drone went haywire and unfortunately you were collateral damage.)
    If you can't taste the sarcasm, try licking the screen.

    Gettin’ old and blind ain’t for sissies. ~ 41Magfan

  3. #33
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixer View Post
    The citizen aspect strikes me as a clear cut case of overkill. Is there really such a huge, dire, pressing, danger from US citizens carrying out terror acts on CONUS?
    US citizens do indeed carry out terrorism, and operate CONUS and OCONUS. You don't have to be in the intelligence community to know this.

    Whether it's 1 incident per decade or 1 per day is irrelevant. The fact that it is obviously such a touchy issue means that we have to develop a way to address it. Ignoring the issue will lead to disaster.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  4. #34
    Those who give up essential liberty...

  5. #35
    Member LHS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    US citizens do indeed carry out terrorism, and operate CONUS and OCONUS. You don't have to be in the intelligence community to know this.

    Whether it's 1 incident per decade or 1 per day is irrelevant. The fact that it is obviously such a touchy issue means that we have to develop a way to address it. Ignoring the issue will lead to disaster.
    And that's fine. Gather intelligence, build a case, arrest the person, try them in open court, and sentence them accordingly. I have no issue whatsoever with trying someone for treason and executing them upon conviction and the exhaustion of appeals. I have a big issue with some nameless 'government official' having carte blanche to assassinate a US citizen with zero oversight or need for justification.

  6. #36
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LHS View Post
    And that's fine. Gather intelligence, build a case, arrest the person, try them in open court, and sentence them accordingly.
    I have no issue whatsoever with trying someone for treason and executing them upon conviction and the exhaustion of appeals. I have a big issue with some nameless 'government official' having carte blanche to assassinate a US citizen with zero oversight or need for justification.
    As if pursuing, detaining and trying terrorists is actually that simple......you realize these are terrorists, not simple criminals, right? That trying one isn't the end of terrorism, that they're part of networks that we still have to pursue after neutralizing one member?

    Trying terrorists in civilian court means you have to disclose intelligence. Many times, this would mean current, actionable intelligence. So we try one dude in an open court, and we lose a significant amount of intelligence on the organization we're trying to penetrate. In addition, the enemy (actually, the whole world) can see how we operated to penetrate these networks. So then, we're set back years and have to start over on the next guy.....all the while our enemies are operating under new networks, free from our influence or monitoring.

    How.....in the world.....do you expect us to actually win against terrorists if we shot ourselves in the foot every time we wanted to take someone out of their organization? Thinking it's as simple as you wrote just blows my mind. That sort of system led to such wonderful events such as the Khobar Towers, embassy bombing, USS Cole, and that little event labelled 9/11.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  7. #37
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Many times, this would mean current, actionable intelligence. So we try one dude in an open court, and we lose a significant amount of intelligence on the organization we're trying to penetrate.
    ...although with the current administration all that pretty much happens anyway when they want to make the prez look tough by blabbing all the details to actors and reporters.
    3/15/2016

  8. #38
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    If you're watching a woman be raped, you don't have to hold a trial before shooting the rapist, either.
    If you're watching someone engaged in noisy public coitus, it may or may not be rape; it could be Mardi Gras. Shooting the guy off of her, at least without checking the calendar, may be a bad idea. It's not a bad parallel.

    Posse comitatus is intended to limit Federal, and especially Presidential, use of the armed forces against US citizens. Bush tried to jack with it but was rebuffed; Obama has successfully altered it in the name of TWOT.

    Everything that was bad about Bush, Obama is better at.

  9. #39
    Site Supporter LOKNLOD's Avatar
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    I'm all for whacking the real bad guys, and would not lose a wink of sleep if I were the one who had to push the "F-U" button on the Bin Ladens of the world and then watch it happen.

    Still, when it comes to stuff like this, I think the principle of imagining any powers you'd like to see granted to the guys on your side, being in the hands of your absolute worst enemies.

    I can't kick the memory of the current admin spreading info to make the case that most of us here are a potential domestic terrorist threat because of our beliefs, as referenced in previous posts.

    What's the difference between an Al Queda training camp, and a CONUS carbine class?
    --Josh
    “Formerly we suffered from crimes; now we suffer from laws.” - Tacitus.

  10. #40
    Member ezthumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctorpogo View Post
    If you're watching someone engaged in noisy public coitus, it may or may not be rape; it could be Mardi Gras.
    If I am watching that...I am obviously down around the french quarter, brain full of booze and soon to be fuzzy memories.

    Which reminds me, it starts the 12th this year in NO.

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