Are Shotguns Really Old and Busted?

[Gadfly]

Tom Givens made the point elsewhere that he had no instances in his database about a shotgun ever having to be reloaded in a self-defense situation due to its stopping power advantage.

Off the top of my head, two come to mind. Newhall, and the Miami Platt/Mattix shootout. Not saying the shotgun is a bad choice. But its not magical, and people can and often do miss with buckshot. The two incidents listed below are anomalies. But they show shotguns can run dry with no effect, and they were not reloaded although they needed to. Both instances the officer transitioned to a handgun. Most likely they had no rounds available to reload.

Given a choice (and our agency has that choice) of one long gun per agent (14" 870, 11.5" or 14.5" M4s, very limited number of MP5A3s) I have the M4... Shit gets knocked, bumped, smacked etc, and I trust the M4 safety far more than the shotgun's. I also get more rounds, lower recoil, easier reloads, etc... BUT, when the only option we had was 870s, I never felt unsafe or outgunned. I have seen several people killed with shotguns (crime scenes). They were pretty chewed up.

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NEWHALL: Meanwhile, Officer Alleyn emptied his Remington Model 870 shotgun at the Pontiac, firing the gun so fast he accidentally ejected a live round in the process. A single pellet from the shotgun struck Twinning in the forehead, but it did not penetrate his skull and only inflicted a minor superficial wound. After expending all his shotgun rounds, Officer Alleyn opened fire on Davis with his .357 Magnum revolver, but did not make any hits. Davis returned fire with his sawed-off shotgun, striking Alleyn with several rounds of 00 buckshot and inflicting fatal injuries.[4][7]

PLATT/MATIX: Agent Mireles fired four more rounds from his Remington 870 at Platt and Matix, but hit neither.[18]

[pablo]

Do the 20 ga foster type deer slugs (non-Brenneke) work about like the 12 ga foster slugs? Meaning not overpenetrating if one happened to be in civilized areas.

High velocity swaged foster slugs are an excellent choice if "over penetration" is a concern, their weak construction plus high velocity usually causes them to break apart into pieces or donut. Most won't meet FBI specs for penetration into bare gelatin. In most cases reduced recoil foster slugs will penetrate significantly further than their high velocity counterparts. A persistent myth is that shotgun slugs as a group are capable of extreme penetration.

[Dagga Boy]

Yes, you actually have to hit something for the 12ga. To work, just like anything else. On the contrary to the above from Gadfly, a recent shooting with a group well know for their skill got two felons with a single shot through the rear of a car (rear passenger and driver) and the primary suspect in the vehicle was also hit with a single round through both carotid arteries in the neck through the back window and out the front. All with slug from Benelli's. Definitely NOT like 5.56 and vehicles.

[Gadfly]

Not saying the shotgun is a bad choice. But its not magical, and people can and often do miss with buckshot. The two incidents listed below are anomalies.

Nyeti, like I said, shotguns do work when they hit. I have seen several bodies torn apart by them. But too many folks I have met assume they are magical and that you can't miss with buckshot. You can miss. As I noted it's an anomaly to miss, not the rule... But you still have to aim.

I don't know the scope of the study that was being quoted. But those two famous incidents just came to my mind. It was not a slam on Tom Givens or his study. If I came off that way, it was not intended.

Again, I don't feel under gunned at all with an 870. I just prefer the AR....

[okie john]

Yes, you actually have to hit something for the 12ga. To work, just like anything else. On the contrary to the above from Gadfly, a recent shooting with a group well know for their skill got two felons with a single shot through the rear of a car (rear passenger and driver) and the primary suspect in the vehicle was also hit with a single round through both carotid arteries in the neck through the back window and out the front. All with slug from Benelli's. Definitely NOT like 5.56 and vehicles.

Any idea what kind of sights were used?


Okie John

[LSP972]

I don't know the scope of the study that was being quoted. But those two famous incidents just came to my mind. It was not a slam on Tom Givens or his study. If I came off that way, it was not intended.

Again, I don't feel under gunned at all with an 870. I just prefer the AR....

Keep in mind that, by that point, Mireles' left hand and arm were useless; he fired those last four rounds both aiming and working the action each time with his right arm only.

I have stood over bodies hit both with birdshot, buckshot, and .223 out of ARs. Unless I could guarantee a CNS hit with the rifle, at indoor ranges I'll take the gauge ANY day. Big, messy hole; rapid exsanguination; etc. Which is why the gauge is my usual HD stand-by. For hurricanes or other long-duration events, yeah, the carbine comes out of the safe and becomes primary... But the gauge is close to hand.

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[BillSWPA]

But too many folks I have met assume they are magical and that you can't miss with buckshot. You can miss. As I noted it's an anomaly to miss, not the rule... But you still have to aim.

I have heard the same thing about not having to aim with a shotgun, as well as other nonsense, said by people who should have known better. Shotguns are definitely misunderstood by many.

[Lester Polfus]

I don't know the scope of the study that was being quoted. But those two famous incidents just came to my mind. It was not a slam on Tom Givens or his study. If I came off that way, it was not intended.
.

I am fairly certain that the scope of Mr. Givens study was limited to homeowner/ordinary citizen vs. felon shootings, and didn't include law enforcement.

[Dagga Boy]

I just finished on article on shotgun myth's.....number one addressed was "you don't need to aim".

[Lon]

I just finished on article on shotgun myth's.....number one addressed was "you don't need to aim".

Wait, what? That can't be. I hear it all the time in gun stores so it must be factual. The best reason for using a shotgun - point the "fiery death end" (thanks, Tom!) in the general direction and let 'er fly.