What's your nonlethal choice?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Perhaps interestingly, back when I used to do a tiny little bit of prize fighting, the two worst losses I took were from those two exact techniques.

One guy threw so many leg kicks (as we called them in Canada at that time) into my left thigh that it just buckled partway through round maybe 4? and he crushed me with a knee on the way down and I came around in time to see him jumping triumphantly with both hands in the air while I tried to get to my feet and kept falling down.

The other guy hit me with a fairly straight descending left hand, just at the bottom of my ribs on my right side. I think I was trying to lay a hard right cross on him but I can't even really remember. I remember he leaned back and I saw his left pretty straight just gunning down into my side but I wasn't really expecting anything from it. I felt okay for a few seconds and then it was like the life just started draining out of me and I felt really confused. Also I thought I had taken a groin shot because that's where it felt like the pain started but I didn't. Anyway I stepped around awkwardly for a second or two and then fell down on the mat and I'm about 95% sure I started crying. It was the worst loss I ever had and easily the most painful.

[Eric_L]

[QUOTE=JodyH;675147
I've seen too many people walk right through OC to make it worth carrying.
Maybe when I get older and stop training as much.[/QUOTE]

Agree, OC is not 100%. I have never had to use it, but know from training that it is not perfect. Craig called it ”eye jab in a can”. Additional skills, like you have, are possibly necessary.

[JodyH]

The other guy hit me with a fairly straight descending left hand, just at the bottom of my ribs on my right side. I think I was trying to lay a hard right cross on him but I can't even really remember. I remember he leaned back and I saw his left pretty straight just gunning down into my side but I wasn't really expecting anything from it. I felt okay for a few seconds and then it was like the life just started draining out of me and I felt really confused. Also I thought I had taken a groin shot because that's where it felt like the pain started but I didn't. Anyway I stepped around awkwardly for a second or two and then fell down on the mat and I'm about 95% sure I started crying. It was the worst loss I ever had and easily the most painful.

The "Hillbilly haymaker" windmill overhand right that most untrained people like to open up the festivities with leaves them wide open for a liver shot.
It's beautiful...

[45dotACP]

My professor occasionally demonstrates a lighter contact version of the leg kicks

I can see where the full contact version would suck. Ditto the teep.

I'm also getting more fond of the idea of slipping or blocking a few, clinching and working from the clinch to a hard shoulder or hip throw.

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[Maple Syrup Actual]

My professor occasionally demonstrates a lighter contact version of the leg kicks

I can see where the full contact version would suck. Ditto the teep.

I'm also getting more fond of the idea of slipping or blocking a few, clinching and working from the clinch to a hard shoulder or hip throw.

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In my fairly limited experience, a well-executed hip throw is brutal, and people close enough to throw are too close to hit you with any real power. My preference as a tall guy has always been to stay out of range but it's about as good to be inside range. As one of my instructors likes to say, "hate him like you love him". Of course, I can hardly understand a word he says, but I believe he means fight from extremely close range.

[NH Shooter]

Since I lack any hand-to-hand combat skills, in this order;

1. Maneuver and evade
2. If I can't evade, then deescalate
3. If deescalation fails, attempt to flee
4. and if all else fails, just shoot the SOB

[Oukaapie]

NH, I’ve found when deescalation fails it’s typically too late for egress. Preemptive striking seems to be the next logical choice (cradle to throat, eye jab, chin jab are easy to learn and deliver non telegraphically) but it may make sense to spend 90 days training on figuring on how to survive the initial onslaught. It’s really pretty easy to handle 80% of what you see if you are in reasonable shape. If you are not in reasonable shape egress at speed can be a challenge.

[SAWBONES]

Since I lack any hand-to-hand combat skills, in this order;

1. Maneuver and evade
2. If I can't evade, then deescalate
3. If deescalation fails, attempt to flee
4. and if all else fails, just shoot the SOB

Apart from fleeing (which might work, but puts your back to the VCA), having something between your numbers 2 & 4, e.g. OC spray, impact weapon, would be worth considering as an addition to your list.

[Duelist]

Agree, OC is not 100%. I have never had to use it, but know from training that it is not perfect. Craig called it ”eye jab in a can”. Additional skills, like you have, are possibly necessary.

That's exactly what Cecil Burch (IIRC, quoting Craig) called it this weekend.

Don't like the can I've got, so I'm ordering some other stuff: wife and I can't carry at work, so we need options like this.

[RevolverRob]

I have pretty persistent nerve issues in my right forearm/elbow from shooting and typing and at present I don't think I'll be quitting either task any time soon.

I have actually found a Foster Impact Devices midget works well to break down knots in my arm so that's what I use it for all the time but as a result I always have it with me.

I usually carry a Boston Leather midget for working the knot that forms in my left trapezius, using the edge is awesome for working it out.

My wife carries a Foster Cable Jack. The braided leather is kind of a sentimental thing for her, but her keys are on it so she's always got it handy.

Either one would suck to get hit with, even if that's not their current primary goal.

My wife has the same. The cable jacks are almost a freak of nature...they hit way too hard for their size...

Muay Thai teep or cut kicks.
A well aimed and well delivered teep to the solar plexus or liver is a heck of a fight stopper.
Not only effective but they're completely unexpected and don't carry the same risks (to your hands or their head) that come along with punching someone in the head.
With a 37" inseam it's my go to "jab" in MMA or Muay Thai sparring.
My teep has about 6" more reach than my jab and I usually have 2"+ of reach on most people so I can throw it from relative safety.

Cut kicks are also really effective against someone who isn't conditioned to deal with them.
A full power cut kick from a well conditioned shin against the soft inner or outer thigh of your average person is brutal.
I still remember the first time I took a solid cut kick without shin pads, even with several months of conditioning behind me it almost took me down.

A 7" Foster #31 to the back of the hands, elbows, ribs, collar bones, etc. is also very effective yet still "less lethal".

I've seen too many people walk right through OC to make it worth carrying.
Maybe when I get older and stop training as much.

Perhaps interestingly, back when I used to do a tiny little bit of prize fighting, the two worst losses I took were from those two exact techniques.

One guy threw so many leg kicks (as we called them in Canada at that time) into my left thigh that it just buckled partway through round maybe 4? and he crushed me with a knee on the way down and I came around in time to see him jumping triumphantly with both hands in the air while I tried to get to my feet and kept falling down.

The other guy hit me with a fairly straight descending left hand, just at the bottom of my ribs on my right side. I think I was trying to lay a hard right cross on him but I can't even really remember. I remember he leaned back and I saw his left pretty straight just gunning down into my side but I wasn't really expecting anything from it. I felt okay for a few seconds and then it was like the life just started draining out of me and I felt really confused. Also I thought I had taken a groin shot because that's where it felt like the pain started but I didn't. Anyway I stepped around awkwardly for a second or two and then fell down on the mat and I'm about 95% sure I started crying. It was the worst loss I ever had and easily the most painful.

Love a good leg kick for all of the reasons above. I've discovered that if you use the flat of a Midget on the thigh region you get a similar effect...

In my fairly limited experience, a well-executed hip throw is brutal, and people close enough to throw are too close to hit you with any real power. My preference as a tall guy has always been to stay out of range but it's about as good to be inside range.

As a short guy, I feel like it's my fucking curse to always fight guys who are 6-10" taller than me. So I learned early on to get inside a tall guy's reach and that usually means body shots, leg shots, groin, lower extremities in general. Since I started learning more clinch game, I've become quite fond of forearms and elbows in general. Still love the heavy liver shot and cut kicks. The one advantage to being short is that you can be close and still generate a lot of power.

Don't like the can I've got, so I'm ordering some other stuff: wife and I can't carry at work, so we need options like this.

The Sabre I posted a link to early in this thread is good stuff. I have a can I carry when walking the dog, another in the car, my wife has one, and my good friend carries a can when she runs.