Raw speed

[orionz06]

But given the altercations we’re talking about are hypothetically occurring between two (or more) human beings, an element at least as important to success is going to be recognizing you’re in a fight to begin with.

Very much so.

[octagon]

I don't get the impression any of those factors weigh into their shooting standards per se.

They may or may not be,but should the same standards be weighed by users who operate under vastly different circumstances.

An example. If 4 SWAT,HRT or name the group are in a setting and engage a badguy. Say each can shoot to the same CNS accuracy standard. And say each has a 1.25 draw and .4 splits. How many bullets hit the CNS targeted area of badguy each second compared to a lone LEO on traffic stop or citizen concealed carrier who meets the same standards of speed and accuracy as the SWAT,HRT group. How many shots hit the badguy in the same time? Less.

In the same guise if a lone LEO or Citizen is engaged by badguy what is their stress level and risk compared to 2 or more SWAT,HRT guys also engaged by badguy? Do the other SWAT,HRT members have the same risk and threat stress response as the member the badguy is shooting directly at? I would say they have less. Is it easier to hit a threat that is focused on shooting another person or shooting at you?

Being able to meet the same standards as someone who works in a pair or team may mean you are slower than what is needed without the backup of the partner, or team to fill the gap with hits of their own.

[Mr_White]

Accuracy wins, but speed is what makes accuracy relevant.

We can't know in advance how fast we will truly need to be in a given situation ahead of time.

And that's why we need to shoot accurately enough, as fast as we can.

[holmes168]

Accuracy wins, but speed is what makes accuracy relevant.

We can't know in advance how fast we will truly need to be in a given situation ahead of time.

And that's why we need to shoot accurately enough, as fast as we can.

Again- trying to learn so I can design my own training plan better until I get to a formal class (HiTS.....).
I don't want to argue speed vs accuracy, but becoming more accurate...faster.
I've started organizing my live fires to shoot 3 Cold FAST, a Dot Torture, then the last 3-4 DOTW, followed by a whatever I want type shoot- this weekend will be the Gabe White Standards.

My question would be during the training drills/DOTW- do you advocate shooting as fast as possible but maybe not being as accurate OR being 100% accurate but not as fast? I find myself trying to move as fast as possible, but missing out on 100% of hits. Knowing which aspect to focus on would be a tremendous help. I want to post quick times, but that does cause me to miss. The accuracy is getting better as can be seen by my Dot Torture results the past couple months.

Trying to stay within the OP- mainly focused on GJM,s last sentence. I'd quote it but at work on my iPhone.

[BehindBlueI's]

When I read about the success of Tom Givens' students in their real life, lethal force battles, I became convinced of the necessity of the successful shooter to utilize movement, even if it's only a side step, which is what Tom teaches. It creates that tiny bit of confusion that could make the difference.

I hesitate to say "necessary", but I'd say it's a really really good idea.

I think a lot of it is skill dependent. Some folks have never trained, and have no place to practice, shooting on the move. I try to instill a crawl/walk/run approach. Without getting way off topic, when you add mental load, people forget to do other stuff. Get someone concentrating on moving, their grip goes to shit. Get them concentrating on their grip and movement, they forget to use the sight, etc. So, you have to build it up block by block. Get one step subconscious then add another.

So, for beginners I recommend they get a good hit on their opponent, then move. Simply because when they try to draw on the move, their movement is slow, their draw is slower, and they miss more. Get the hit THEN move. As they get progressively more skilled, then incorporate movement during the draw, shooting on the move, etc. There's a huge difference in what someone like Gabe White can do and what Joe Snuffy the newbie can do, but Newbie may still have to perform in real life before he gets better.

[JHC]

They may or may not be,but should the same standards be weighed by users who operate under vastly different circumstances.

An example. If 4 SWAT,HRT or name the group are in a setting and engage a badguy. Say each can shoot to the same CNS accuracy standard. And say each has a 1.25 draw and .4 splits. How many bullets hit the CNS targeted area of badguy each second compared to a lone LEO on traffic stop or citizen concealed carrier who meets the same standards of speed and accuracy as the SWAT,HRT group. How many shots hit the badguy in the same time? Less.

In the same guise if a lone LEO or Citizen is engaged by badguy what is their stress level and risk compared to 2 or more SWAT,HRT guys also engaged by badguy? Do the other SWAT,HRT members have the same risk and threat stress response as the member the badguy is shooting directly at? I would say they have less. Is it easier to hit a threat that is focused on shooting another person or shooting at you?

Being able to meet the same standards as someone who works in a pair or team may mean you are slower than what is needed without the backup of the partner, or team to fill the gap with hits of their own.

None of that is relevant. LE, SWAT, SOF - they don't train to put their eggs in the basket of ganging up 4 on 1, or 2 on 1. They have to fight one on one too. They can be in the position of reacting to a surprise attack as well, perhaps alone and outnumbered. If every Dagga Boy post on this was all in a Wiki . . .

There is an amazing similarity to the standards that the most blooded agencies all arrive at too. That's pretty interesting.

But all we're getting at is that the accuracy standard is VERY tight as GJM laid down in his "upper CNS" accuracy standard post on page 2 I think. Good standard for men and beast.

Then the rest is how fast can one deliver that with recognition, reaction and delivery?

[Mr_White]

holmes168,

For an enthusiast, who is going to practice and shoot frequently, a very productive thing is to practice what you can just barely do, or what you can't quite do - that grinds out the deepening of raw skill.

But, in addition to that, the enthusiast must practice applying that raw skill in a proper on-demand manner, across a wide variety of shooting problems in combination with all manner of movement, barrier use, etc. - a contextual shooting agility appropriate and efficient for the physical circumstances at hand, whatever they are (practical shooting.) This is the critical element of discipline.

So when you are trying to deepen your raw skill, then maybe you should push things, and that will include making mistakes (not 100% hits.) It is critical that you pay attention and notice the nature of your mistakes so that you can actively work to correct them. That is how you will build and refine skill, rather than practicing bad habits wholesale. And you need to further temper that raw skill by practicing disciplined application to all manner of shooting problems.

If a person is not an enthusiast, and they are not interested in doing all that, they are probably best served by developing a basic foundational level of skill (just hit the target and gunhandle safely), and then practicing disciplined application of that base skill exclusively on the few occasions that they might actually practice.

[holmes168]

Mr White- thank you for the reply. So glad this forum is a safe place to learn more. To me- this what a forum should be- a place where people who are seriously trying to learn without being made to feel stupid.
Lots of the inexperienced pistol shooters don't try to be d-bags, they really have a genuine interest in learning the art.
Trying to be proficient in the pistol is a journey that is much different than the AR.

Thanks again-

[octagon]

None of that is relevant. LE, SWAT, SOF - they don't train to put their eggs in the basket of ganging up 4 on 1, or 2 on 1. They have to fight one on one too. They can be in the position of reacting to a surprise attack as well, perhaps alone and outnumbered. If every Dagga Boy post on this was all in a Wiki . . .

There is an amazing similarity to the standards that the most blooded agencies all arrive at too. That's pretty interesting.

But all we're getting at is that the accuracy standard is VERY tight as GJM laid down in his "upper CNS" accuracy standard post on page 2 I think. Good standard for men and beast.

Then the rest is how fast can one deliver that with recognition, reaction and delivery?

It is relevant as there is a difference between shooting speed and accuracy between the range and actual life threatening situations. It is relevant because in most cases of SWAT,HRT the members are not acting alone,going into a room alone,using the same equipment to get hits or protect them and they go in knowing it may very likely end up in a shoot situation. It means less surprise and faster ability mentally and physically to respond than the LEO on a traffic stop or citizen CC. If everyone performed to the same standards on the street as they do on the range I would say it is irrelevant. They don't and stress and risk are the factors as well as surprise/response.

What I am saying is that meeting the standards designed to work in one set of circumstances does not necessarily mean those standards are applicable or appropriate standards for someone working in very different circumstances. If you don't agree then we can end further discussion and agree to disagree. Being able to shoot ________ agency's qualification course clean does not translate into street performance of the same or we wouldn't have abysmal hit ratios across the nation. Speed,surprise and life threatening stress are the detrimental effects not involved in range tests,qualifications.

[LSP552]

I don't think that a tight CNS needs to be the default. For some circumstances, absolutely. For the majority, I want fast high chest and then move elsewhere at failure. The head is a hard target with a pistol under the best of real circumstances.

Talking just people.