I think I've mentioned this anecdote previously but your post just reminded me...
We had a (not very popular) agent who was famous for having tried to load his magazines with one round facing forward, one rearward when he was told to "stagger" his rounds by the range officer at FLETC.
(He also wanted to know what PRNDL meant above the steering column during a skid pan lesson.)
Fuckery indeed.
Last edited by blues; 05-03-2017 at 08:13 PM.
There's nothing civil about this war.
I can't believe this thread is still alive, but the "fuckery" turn is definitely a turn for the better, IMHO
Ok, so I'm home, sick in bed, sober and bored so I actually just read through all 10 pages of this topic. WOW...
First off, I love when a point is trying to be justified based on, "I know someone in Law Enforcement who said...". You do realize that there are a lot of people participating in this conversation with an actual background in Law Enforcement. With larger urban agencies. With first hand experience.
Dr. Gary Roberts has more than a passing knowledge on the topic. Just saying. He actually knows what he's talking about reference terminal ballistics. And more important, his tests can be replicated. My small agency of 1,200 needed to change duty ammunition in 2011. So we hosted a pair of ballistic workshops. Short version of the story was that we conducted the same tests of the same types of ammunition, and were able to duplicate Dr. Roberts results. I'm not a scientist, but I think that the ability to duplicate results adds credibility to the initial testing process.
I've shot enough auto glass over the years to understand that bullets will deflect. It's not rocket science, you just shoot the windshield until you create a hole. Then you shoot rounds through the hole at the suspect. I find this much easier than trying to remember which magazine has which type of pistol ammunition in it while someone is actively trying to kill you.
When shooting a human, penetration matters. Too little is bad, too much is almost as bad. If you don't hit the central nervous system, then you need to drop the blood pressure enough so that the suspect stops doing that which caused you to shoot them in the first place. Once again, Dr. Roberts can explain it much better than I. Something that the, "Friend who's with a Federal Agency" or the "Friend who's a LEO" might not tell you is that some people are harder to incapacitate than others. In other words, some people take more effort to stop than others.
LEO hit/miss ratio? Please... At least in my city, the officer involved in a OIS incident will have to be able to state that they had a clear backstop. One of the reasons why our profession can suck at times is that we have rules, policies, procedures and Department guidelines. We have to be able to decide if it's a shoot or a no-shoot situation. Especially in an urban environment.
To carry magazine loaded with alternate loads of FMJ then JHP is to assume that at least 50% of your ammunition is not up to the task at hand. Here's a thought, if you feel that way, then get a barrier blind load and carry that.
I've been an intercity LEO for the last 24+ years. During that time, I've seen people shot with just about every caliber firearm that a person can steal. I've seen all types of rounds work and all types of rounds fail. I am convinced that the secret to coming out alive during a violent armed confrontation is actually rather simple. One must utilize good shot placement and the appropriate tactics when dealing with an armed suspect, before the armed suspect can do the same to you.
Fuckery...
Last edited by Beat Trash; 05-14-2017 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Fuckery
The advantage of using JHPs is largely based on the premise that increasing non-vital wound trauma leads to physiological incapacitation (including a psychological component). The problem with some JHPs is that in return for more tissue disruption penetration is quite limited as expansion (expanded bullet diameter) is not carefully controlled (not always possible or even deemed necessary by some manufacturers). Although 10% "real" gel (as well as water) IS a good soft-tissue simulant at typical handgun velocities, penetration correlation between such gel (and also water) and human non-homogeneous soft-tissue breaks down as the bullet substantially slows down -- which, for typical JHPs, happens within several inches after impact.
I just want to say Thankyou to all here for the knowledge and information on the forum. I read here a lot, post little as I was once told by a man I worked for at age 15...... " The less you say, The less ignorant people will know you are "!!
My morning coffee time I read here. I enjoy the humor as much as the knowledge.
Keep up the good work
Thanks, Mike