Home Defense : Hollow Point vs FMJ *HANDGUNS ONLY*

[Chuck Haggard]

I know its generally assumed, but there are other people saying LE hits 1 out of 5 pistol shots.
.

That assumption is based on the NYPD SOP9 reports, to say all LE shoots to that level is bullshit. Some might shoot worse, many do better, often much better. Making wide and sweeping statements based on bro science mythology is a poor practice.

Not directed at you, just an editorial statement.

[Chuck Haggard]

A good friend of mine who is a Federal Agent says there is one advantage to FMJ in self-defense or VIP protection: They go straight through a window/windshield whereas hollow points will change trajectory wildly and tumble the bullet. He likes to load every other round HP-FMJ-HP-FMJ. He has also tried a spare mag with FMJ, but he says stuff happens way to fast to consider a mag change when a windshield shot is needed. But then again he is doing VIP protection most of the time, so the situation is a bit different than normal. But may not be a bad idea in some cases.
Cody

FMJs tend to shed jackets and perform rather poorly against auto glass, in both fragmentation and deflection. Even in the larger calibers this is true. Part of a murder case work-up I was involved in showed that the suspect's .45acp 230gr FMJs fragmented going through side window glass, peppering the victim and the dash of the vehicle she was in.

The practice of carrying ball ammo for auto glass/shooting into vehicles was common in the days before good modern bonded or controlled expansion bullets were invented post 1986. Even as late as the early '90s I personally heard an LAPD SWAT member teaching this as their SOP for their .45s, and it was bad info then.

Mixing ammo in your mags is pure fuckery. Unless one is shooting a belt fed gun and mixing things like ball and tracers it's just stupid as hell.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Claude and Jim Wilson have engaged the revolver vs. semi issue again - https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress....icalprofessor/

As far as recycling, I was told by someone in the wedding magazine industry that they have a 3 year cycle on articles as that is the attention span of engaged women and the tailing off of new brides. I supposed 9mm vs 45 for that cheatin' SOB who nailed my maid of honor has to be discussed every once in awhile.

Wait - how about alternative bird shot, buck shot and slugs in the HD shotgun and racking it for the sound effect?

[DocGKR]

As noted, LE hit ratio's vary. For example, according to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002. The highest LE hit ratio's we have seen reported from large agencies have been in the 50-60% range, the lowest were in the 8-12% range....

[Chuck Haggard]

The last I talked to the guys in OKC they were hitting in the 75% range. They take shooting very seriously down there.

At my old job we kept things well above 50% generally, typically in the 75% range. I could cherry pick a bad run we had in a particular 18 month period where we kept 100% hits on target tho.

[DocGKR]

Yes indeed: one can always find higher hit ratios when selectively looking at smaller data sets--I know of a mid-size California agency that had close to 100% hit ratios for several years over dozens of shootings, but with a change in agency "leadership", a decreased training budget, and newer less experienced personnel, that hit ratio substantially decreased so that the total aggregate hit ratio over a decade of time is now less than 50%...

[octagon]

Yes indeed: one can always find higher hit ratios when selectively looking at smaller data sets--I know of a mid-size California agency that had close to 100% hit ratios for several years over dozens of shootings, but with a change in agency "leadership", a decreased training budget, and newer less experienced personnel, that hit ratio substantially decreased so that the total aggregate hit ratio over a decade of time is now less than 50%...

Yes this or a high round count shooting that skews the overall average. We had around 10 shootings where 1-7 rounds were fired and a hit ratio of 70%+ was the trend. Then we had an incident where the officer fired 31 rounds with 6 hits when the suspect was behind cover or partial cover as some rounds penetrated and others did not. Depending on how you look at it it can mess with the average hit ratio. Kind of how Uniform Crime Reports of LEOKA for 2001 always had the * for 9/11 related deaths.

[cclaxton]

FMJs tend to shed jackets and perform rather poorly against auto glass, in both fragmentation and deflection. Even in the larger calibers this is true. Part of a murder case work-up I was involved in showed that the suspect's .45acp 230gr FMJs fragmented going through side window glass, peppering the victim and the dash of the vehicle she was in.

The practice of carrying ball ammo for auto glass/shooting into vehicles was common in the days before good modern bonded or controlled expansion bullets were invented post 1986. Even as late as the early '90s I personally heard an LAPD SWAT member teaching this as their SOP for their .45s, and it was bad into then.

Mixing ammo in your mags is pure fuckery. Unless one is shooting a belt fed gun and mixing things like ball and tracers it's just stupid as hell.

Thanks, Chuck. I am convinced. I will ask my friend if he has changed his mind.
Cody

[nycnoob]

Last night I was listening to an interesting podcast about "the
Half Life of Fact". The idea is that new things are always being
discovered and many old ideas and facts are being invalidated by
experiment. So it is true that many things you learned in
highschool are no longer true, though they were considered facts
at the time you learned them. So one needs to make a consious
effort to keep up with the data, and it can be jarring if you go
back and look at a subject that you have not examined since
childhood and find that it appears that nearly ALL of it has
changed. In the subjects you follow regularly you may not notice
the incremental changes. The halflife of facts varies by subject
but is like 9-15 years for most subjects.


099 - The Half Life of Facts

https://soundcloud.com/youarenotsosmart

[LorenzoS]

Threads like this are why I appreciate Gary Roberts' duty ammo post so much. It's saved me from wasted time and distraction over several years now.