Potential duty gun change: G17 Gen 4 to VP9

[GardoneVT]

Why are guns considered disposable/weak simply because they're polymer? Can't a Glock survive like 100K rounds? Is there any revolver capable of that kind of longevity? Really any non-poly gun aside from some 1911s and maybe the CZ-75 series or all-steel Sigs? Plus modern guns are overbuilt around .40/.357 Sig a lot of the time.

If anything it seems like modern guns are more long-lasting. I bought a 12-year-old G23 for $300 bucks, swapped out the locking block and springs for like $40, and it looks almost new inside.

There's two big reasons behind agencies changing weapons frequently. One is the labor cost to maintain via a unit armorer as outlined above.

The second reason? Most individuals in a government agency that issue weapons flatly don't care. Maybe two people in ten are "gun guys" who care about maintaining their duty guns. The rest? They'd probably never shoot or clear/clean their issue weapon again unless forced to; and training people to be self-armorers also costs money and time.

By replacing the guns frequently not only does an agency save money on labor , they also incidentally ensure Joe Patrolman isn't walking around with an unservicable gun because he hasn't maintained it since leaving Academy 15+ years ago.

[LockedBreech]

DpdG and Wiliard, thank you for the clarification, I misunderstood the point being made.

Edit: Thanks to you as well, GVT, we posted at the same time.

If the difference between maintenance and all-new is close, I absolutely agree with getting fresh systems (as long as there is proven quality control and reliability there). Police should be using the best gear reasonably financially available, not making do, especially if the cost window is that narrow.

I know there was a collective sigh of agency-wide relief when one of our local agencies switched from 12-year-old Gen 3s to new Gen 4s. A lot of the maintenance headaches that were just starting to crop up vanished overnight. It's easy to fail to factor in that not everyone using a gun is a hobbyist with time to kill babying every gun. Maintenance at an organizational level is something I just don't understand. I should probably have learned by now to stop opining in this thread, it's just very interesting stuff to me. Thanks for indulging me.

[JonInWA]

No doubt the polymer wonder nines can last longer a very long time, and are shot in greater frequency than the service revolver of yesteryear. No argument there. I'm certainly not arguing a Colt Official Police or S&W M-10 is more durable than modern Glock, USP, etc. Point was today, it is often cheaper to replace than maintain, and I'd wager relatively few officers get through a career with the same gun. DpdG's post in #109 gets to the economics of that. Not just confined to guns. I believe contemporary society is a disposable one, whether we're talking guns, appliances, televisions, relationships, etc.

That's a very fair point(s).

Best, Jon

[HCM]

It's pretty remarkable what line cops can do to a weapon that rides in an exposed holster.

This ^^^^.

I propose LE guns be tested using the protocol MAC (military Arms Channel) uses only substitute the dirt for a mix of powdered sugar, cheetos crumbs and Doritos crumbs.

Test 1x 45 rounds after being buried in dry mix.

Blow clean with air hose. Re-lube.

Test 1x 45 rounds after being buried in mud made from dry mix and DR Pepper.

Rinse clean with water. Blow dry with air hose & re-lube.

Test 1x45 rounds after being buried in dry mix then pour contents of dip spit cups / bottles left in pool vehicles for min. 3 days.

[taadski]

This ^^^^.

I propose LE guns be tested using the protocol MAC (military Arms Channel) uses only substitute the dirt for a mix of powdered sugar, cheetos crumbs and Doritos crumbs.

Test 1x 45 rounds after being buried in dry mix.

Blow clean with air hose. Re-lube.

Test 1x 45 rounds after being buried in mud made from dry mix and DR Pepper.

Rinse clean with water. Blow dry with air hose & re-lube.

Test 1x45 rounds after being buried in dry mix then pour contents of dip spit cups / bottles left in pool vehicles for min. 3 days.

Hey, stay the fuck outta my patrol vehicle!

[Chipster]

Shot the VP9 this morning. Two sets of Dot Torture just to get a feel for it. Cleaned both at 5 yards. The VP9 seems like it shoots a bit flatter or less snappy than my Glock 17 but I did not care for the stock night sights as the front sight seemed a bit chunky compared to my Heinie's. I am sure it is a just a bit of familiarity but I definitely had to work harder and concentrate harder to clean the drill. I am hoping in the next couple of days that with a warm-up, I might be able to get out and do a few more practical drills.

[LockedBreech]

Shot the VP9 this morning. Two sets of Dot Torture just to get a feel for it. Cleaned both at 5 yards. The VP9 seems like it shoots a bit flatter or less snappy than my Glock 17 but I did not care for the stock night sights as the front sight seemed a bit chunky compared to my Heinie's. I am sure it is a just a bit of familiarity but I definitely had to work harder and concentrate harder to clean the drill. I am hoping in the next couple of days that with a warm-up, I might be able to get out and do a few more practical drills.

Mine has the factory TruGlo nights and they definitely are a bit "chunky" - if it's any comfort I was able to adjust pretty shortly.

[Patrin]

Sorry, in my empirical experience I disagree with you here, and I agree with Psalms144.1 on this one; on my sample size of exactly 1 (VP40), I too have found the VP trigger to be at least perceptually (I haven't measured it) exceptionally light and with a concurrent short pull distance (and reset distance); the nearest Glock comparison would be a Glock with a minus connector and the coil trigger spring, as often provided as the Glock OEM set-up for the so-called competitive Glocks, such as the G17L, G24, G34, and G35. Best, Jon

My experience is the direct opposite of this...over six VP9's that I own, all have virtually the same trigger pull with little variation and are certainly not as light as a Glock with a (-) connector. The 'wall' on the VP9 is heavier...and that's my experience shooting both side by side.

[psalms144.1]

So, in the interest of science, I just pulled out my Lyman digital trigger gauge. The results of 10 pulls each on my Gen4 G19 (completely stock, unpolished, connector lubed with one small drop of oil) showed a low of 6 lbs 2 oz; a high of 7 lbs 2 oz; and an average across the 10 pulls of 6 lbs 7 oz (one ounce lighter than factory spec 6.5 pounds). My VP9 showed a low of 5 lbs 2 oz; a high of 5 lbs 12 oz and an average of 5 lbs 4 oz. Average "take up" weight on the G19 was 5 lbs +/- an ounce - for a "wall" weight of 1 lb 2 oz - 2 lbs 2 0z; average "take up" weight on the VP9 was 3 lbs, 14 oz (again, +/- one ounce) - for a wall weight of 1 lb 4 oz to 1 lbs 14 oz.

On trigger travel - the center of the face of the G19 trigger "at rest" is .64" from the frontstrap (inside the trigger guard), and the trigger breaks at .33" - for a travel of .31". The Glock's trigger resets at .43", for a reset distance of .12" (as best as I can judge). The VP9's trigger "at rest" is .91" from the frontstrap, and the trigger breaks at .58" - for a travel of .33". The reset is at .78" for a reset distance of approximately .25"

What does all of that mean? On my Glocks, the take up is heavier, the wall is heavier, but the trigger travel is shorter in reset (and in take up, but by an amount that's barely measurable). The VP9's trigger is more consistent (10 ounce variation vs the Glock's 16 ounce spread), lighter by 1 lb 3 oz (on average) but has a longer reset. Those are the numbers using my two pistols, so a sample of one comparison, using measuring devices (trigger gauge and micrometer). What difference does any of that make? Probably none, at all .

[JonInWA]

Thanks, Psalms144.1-that's useful. I don't have a scale, but I'll try to do an objective side-by-side dryfire comparison this evening. My concern, such as it is, with the VPs has more to do with what I perceive as the softness of the transition between the initial take up/wall/trigger breaking. Where there's indeed a wall after the initial take-up, it seems softer/less resistant into segueing into the trigger break point.

Patrin, none of the Glocks I possess are set up with a minus connector and OEM coil trigger spring, as all of mine are used for carry; all of my minus connector Glocks are paired with a NY1, as I was uneasy with the minus and coil spring. I'm still on the fence regarding my VP40; I like it, it's exceptionally accurate, but I'm a bit wary of it as a carry gun if threat management is part of the forseeable use equation. I may be being conservative here, but I do have the alternative of my P30L with V1 LEM, Glocks, and others for carry/threat management.

I think that the VPs are an excellent gun, accurate, tailorable, and with great consistency and feel regarding their triggerpull. I'm just not sure that they're an ideal issue gun, unless the issueing agency has sufficient time and resources for individual training and thorough familiarization. It's asset(s) can be an operational hindrance otherwise, in my opinion.

Best, Jon