Verbal aggression at gunpoint

[Randy Harris]

So....what are your contingency plans for non compliance?

[Dagga Boy]

This is timely in regards to the discussion here.....
http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...se+Training%29[URL="http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/when-the-criminal-doesnt-obey-your-commands?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&ut m_campaign=Feed%3A+ActiveResponseTraining+%28Activ e+Response+Training%29"]

When the Criminal Doesn’t Obey your Commands
Written by Greg EllifritzTopics: News and Tactical Advice

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Written by: Greg Ellifritz


It’s a rewarding thing to watch my firearms students as they learn and progress. They start with safe gun handling skills, the basics of marksmanship, and learning when it is legally appropriate to shoot someone. If they continue training, they might learn more “tactical” or combative shooting skills. As their abilities improve, they might move on to more scenario oriented classes using role players armed with Simunition or airsoft guns.

During the scenario-oriented classes I teach, students often have the most problems with verbal interactions rather than physical skills. This holds true in both unarmed fighting classes and classes focused on weapon use. Students’ physical skills (either shooting or fighting) are usually good enough that they can “win” the scenarios I create. Where they falter is in the area of verbal interaction.

Students have three basic problems with verbal interaction during the pre-attack phase of a crime about to be committed:

1) They don’t have adequate experience communicating assertively or aggressively. Society rewards people who are compliant and go with the flow. Loud, aggressive, and dominant language is discouraged among civilized people. How many times have you heard a parent scold their child by saying “Use your INSIDE voice”? We just don’t get much practice being aggressive in our daily lives.


Some people need practice in order to act like this…
2) Auditory exclusion kicks in. Under most stressful circumstances, the brain has to prioritize the vast amount of data that it is processing. In most cases, priority will be given to information provided by our sight. Hearing things becomes more difficult as sight is prioritized. Students regularly report that they hear their attackers’ voices sounding like the “Wah Wah Wah” sounds of Charlie Brown’s teacher. They know the attacker is saying something but just don’t have the brain power to devote to listening. It’s hard to communicate assertively if you aren’t picking up the words your attacker may be using.

3) The student’s ego gets involved. This one happens primarily when the attacker either insults the defender or fails to obey the defender’s verbal commands. When either of these things happen, the student often becomes enraged. They stop thinking and get caught up in an ever-escalating yelling match with the criminal. Some criminals will even bait their victims into this escalation game. They know that if they can enrage the victim, he or she is less likely to think clearly.

The first two problems are relatively easy to deal with. Assertive communication can be taught and practiced. Auditory exclusion can be reduced through the “stress-innoculation” effects of repeated scenario training.

It’s the third problem that I have the most difficulty rectifying. I still remember a retired Colonel in the US Army who came through one of my scenario training classes at TDI. The Colonel was confronted with the scenario of finding an unarmed drunk man in his house at night. The scenario was supposed to simulate an event where an intoxicated person stumbled into the wrong house by mistake.

The Colonel, who was an excellent shooter and tactician, pointed his gun at the intruder and ordered him to leave the house. It was a very good judgement call as the “drunk’ was not acting threatening in any way. The fun started when the drunk man refused to leave, saying words to the effect of “Chill out dude. It’s all cool. You don’t need to resort to violence. Come on, I’ll get you a beer.” The Colonel verbally escalated. The drunk just stayed calm and mellow, but refused to leave. The situation became even more heated and the Colonel started yelling. His face was red and he was shaking. He wasn’t scared. He was pissed! The Colonel just wasn’t used to people disobeying his direct orders. He didn’t have a mental map of what he should do because in his experience as a high ranking military officer, people always did exactly what he told them to do.

Unfortunately, criminals aren’t the best listeners…even when they have a gun pointed at their faces. I’ve lost count of how many times a criminal has disobeyed my lawful commands even as a uniformed police officer. I once had a domestic violence suspect try to physically attack me while I was holding him at gunpoint with a shotgun and ordering him to get down on the ground. It’s actually quite common. I’ll bet most of you haven’t really thought about the issue.

A prefect example is the case last week where an 11-year old shot a fleeing burglar who refused the command to stop. What a mess. It was clearly an unjustified shooting. The burglar posed no threat to the kid and was running away. The kid shot 12 9mm bullets at the guy and hit him with one. Where did the others go? Will they prosecute an 11 year old kid? I doubt it. Would they prosecute an adult for doing the same thing? You can bet on it. You can’t just shoot someone because they aren’t following your commands.

What if you confronted a criminal at gunpoint? You order him to the ground. He doesn’t comply, but he doesn’t try to draw a weapon or close the distance on you in any way. What would you do? Shoot him?

I think the best answer is “no”.

As surprising as it sounds, I’ve seen many instances in training where as student gets more and more agitated with the role player’s non-compliance and then just shoots the role player out of sheer frustration. As the student gets ever more enraged at the role player’s audacity in ignoring commands, higher order thought processes become harder to perform. My guess is that’s what happened in the case with the 11-year old linked above. If the student was calm, he might be able to think about an alternate solution. That doesn’t work so well when the student is angry.

Don’t let you ego interfere with your safety. EXPECT the criminal to ignore your commands and have a backup plan for when it happens. Don’t get angry. Don’t allow the criminal to manipulate you by challenging your ego. I’ve seen it happen in both real life and in training. The results are not pretty.

Mentally program yourself right now. Expect criminal non-compliance. Think through your options. If the criminal doesn’t comply, but doesn’t escalate, you generally have a little time to act. At first indication of such an experience, either use the opportunity to escape or transition to another, more appropriate, weapon.

Don’t get angry and do something you might regret in the future.
- See more at: http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne....2NAtCuv8.dpuf

We didn't address the issue that The Katar would like to focus on here....what kind of pistol did the 11 year old use, sights, trigger system, etc.? I think a red dot and DOW would have made a huge difference in that encounter. Because it's the arrow, not the Indian.

[pablo]

This is timely in regards to the discussion here.....
http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...se+Training%29[URL="http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/when-the-criminal-doesnt-obey-your-commands?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&ut m_campaign=Feed%3A+ActiveResponseTraining+%28Activ e+Response+Training%29"]

When the Criminal Doesn’t Obey your Commands
Written by Greg EllifritzTopics: News and Tactical Advice

The PERF people say that if we're just nice to the criminal who doesn't follow the rules, say "please" and "thank you", he'll do whatever we ask of him.

Our 12 gauge bean bag and 37mm sponge guns, were excellent tools in these types of situations. Once the word got out that non-compliance at gunpoint was a good way to get thumped, most of that type of resistance ceased.

[Randy Harris]

Civilians (or off duty police) are probably not going to the store for milk with bean bag rounds as an option....

So for others, what is your contingency plan? We can probably all agree that holstering up and going hands on to convince them to comply at fist point is about the last thing we should do. Would you pepper spray a non compliant person you are holding at gun point (assuming you actually do carry spray as your 24/7 edc)? Do you simply leave them there and evade/escape? We all agree that just yelling louder and approaching them while shaking the gun at them is not any more likely to be any more effective at 3 yards than it was from farther away...so what are some strategies for dealing with it?

Let's say you are not "hiding behind the gun" but are fully prepared to drop the hammer....if necessary....but then due to narcotics/alcohol/felonious dumbassery they are not being fully compliant...but not overtly aggressive either....and you being the conscientious sort are not going to simply execute them for simply being frustrating and contrary.... now what?

[HCM]

Civilians (or off duty police) are probably not going to the store for milk with bean bag rounds as an option....

So for others, what is your contingency plan? We can probably all agree that holstering up and going hands on to convince them to comply at fist point is about the last thing we should do. Would you pepper spray a non compliant person you are holding at gun point (assuming you actually do carry spray as your 24/7 edc)? Do you simply leave them there and evade/escape? We all agree that just yelling louder and approaching them while shaking the gun at them is not any more likely to be any more effective at 3 yards than it was from farther away...so what are some strategies for dealing with it?

Let's say you are not "hiding behind the gun" but are fully prepared to drop the hammer....if necessary....but then due to narcotics/alcohol/felonious dumbassery they are not being fully compliant...but not overtly aggressive either....and you being the conscientious sort are not going to simply execute them for simply being frustrating and contrary.... now what?

Backing off at gunpoint (your evade / escape) is a good option if out and about. If I'm in my home, my aggression will be higher and my threshold for use of force will be lower. The situations are legally or morally equivalent.

[SLG]

Civilians (or off duty police) are probably not going to the store for milk with bean bag rounds as an option....

So for others, what is your contingency plan? We can probably all agree that holstering up and going hands on to convince them to comply at fist point is about the last thing we should do. Would you pepper spray a non compliant person you are holding at gun point (assuming you actually do carry spray as your 24/7 edc)? Do you simply leave them there and evade/escape? We all agree that just yelling louder and approaching them while shaking the gun at them is not any more likely to be any more effective at 3 yards than it was from farther away...so what are some strategies for dealing with it?

Let's say you are not "hiding behind the gun" but are fully prepared to drop the hammer....if necessary....but then due to narcotics/alcohol/felonious dumbassery they are not being fully compliant...but not overtly aggressive either....and you being the conscientious sort are not going to simply execute them for simply being frustrating and contrary.... now what?

Why are you pointing the gun at them in the first place? What happened?

[psalms144.1]

Why are you pointing the gun at them in the first place? What happened?

This is a question I've been asking myself a lot lately, and probably worth a thread in and of itself.

While I would NEVER EVER EVER want anyone to second guess their decision to use deadly force in the face of deadly force (or the threat thereof), I think LE and shooters in general are VERY prone to "go to guns" as a default solution, absent a clear lethal force threat.

I don't know the answer to that conundrum, as I'd rather have guns out and not needed than guns holstered and good guys behind the decision curve in a deadly force encounter.

I'm sure someone a LOT smarter than I'll ever be will decode this for us eventually, but right now it's a puzzle to me. And, I hear the choirs tuning up, and if I had a decent intermediate option it would be the solution, but I also remember from way back when that Hicks Law tells me for every option I have to decide between, I double my decision making process.

One of my old Bosses, and the smartest non-academic I've ever met (WAY smarter than most of my professors at Georgetown) was once asked, in an industry conference, what his #1 technology need was. His reply was "a gun that kills someone dead, for 30 minutes, with no long term effects." All of us geeks immediately mumbled "phasers set for stun!" but, we're a long way off from that technology yet...

[Randy Harris]

Why are you pointing the gun at them in the first place? What happened?

The same thing that would usually happen when civilians end up holding people at gunpoint...they either broke into your house , approached you on the street, or you inserted yourself into someone else's problems out in public....Nothing specific. I'm simply asking the question to keep driving the discussion....I already know what I would likely do (or at least what I have done in the past) but I'm curious as to other people's suggestions. I realize that answering blindly to an ill defined problem usually leads to an "aha! You failed" type thing so everyone hesitates to give an answer.....but that is not my intent.

We all know that inserting ourselves into potentially dangerous situations with limited information is less than optimal...yet people still do it. And even if it is a clear cut case of self defense , but the guy drops his weapon...but is not completely compliant, but no longer armed and now running his mouth and now maybe the cell phone videos are starting up....how would you attempt to manage that. Again I'm not trying to "gotcha" anyone. I'm looking for legitimate suggestions from people who are deep thinkers....not the "shoot 'em and drag 'em in the house" crowd.

It could be anything....say you stop at a gas station to hit the restroom and when you walk out of the restroom the cashier is being threatened at knife point. And yes, convenience stores do get robbed at knife point occasionally. There were 2 or 3 instances of this that I know about in my town a couple of years ago. So you take cover (well...concealment...nothing in a convenience store is really cover) and tell him to drop it ....and he does. You then tell him to get on the ground and he does not comply. He just starts talking and telling you that he knows you won't shoot etc etc.....and the 2 other folks in the store start pointing their cell phones running video instead of calling the cops.....now what?

[pablo]

It could be anything....say you stop at a gas station to hit the restroom and when you walk out of the restroom the cashier is being threatened at knife point. And yes, convenience stores do get robbed at knife point occasionally. There were 2 or 3 instances of this that I know about in my town a couple of years ago. So you take cover (well...concealment...nothing in a convenience store is really cover) and tell him to drop it ....and he does. You then tell him to get on the ground and he does not comply. He just starts talking and telling you that he knows you won't shoot etc etc.....and the 2 other folks in the store start pointing their cell phones running video instead of calling the cops.....now what?

If the good guy isn't a uniformed police officer and hasn't positioned himself between the bad guy and the only avenue of escape, at certain point it's time to stop talking, hold that little two square feet of earth he's standing on, wait for the badguy. The badguy voluntarily hanging around, to me indicates he's just looking for an opportunity to kill me. For a lot of turds, talking smack is an important part of the pre-fight warm up process, and giving the same verbal challenge to the same predictable results, is just getting caught in a goofy loop, and helping the bad guy psych himself up for the attack. Letting the bad guy leave is always an option too.

It would probably be better to get to that position of concealment and try to call 911 as discreetly as possible first. It will also help prevent those situations where the good guy gets described as the psycho with a gun by someone who shows up in the middle of act two. It's no different than uniformed officers that get themselves involved in a situation before notifying dispatch, and by the time they get on the radio, they are in way over their heads and screaming for help.

If the good guy can remove himself from the situation, there's no legal and IMO very little moral obligation to protect people that willingly remain in dangerous situations, especial people trying to take cell phone video.

Personally I think it's a bad idea to pass on the opportunity to take out a relatively stationary target in a deadly force encounter, but that's neither here nor there.

[SLG]

The same thing that would usually happen when civilians end up holding people at gunpoint...they either broke into your house , approached you on the street, or you inserted yourself into someone else's problems out in public....Nothing specific. I'm simply asking the question to keep driving the discussion....I already know what I would likely do (or at least what I have done in the past) but I'm curious as to other people's suggestions. I realize that answering blindly to an ill defined problem usually leads to an "aha! You failed" type thing so everyone hesitates to give an answer.....but that is not my intent.

We all know that inserting ourselves into potentially dangerous situations with limited information is less than optimal...yet people still do it. And even if it is a clear cut case of self defense , but the guy drops his weapon...but is not completely compliant, but no longer armed and now running his mouth and now maybe the cell phone videos are starting up....how would you attempt to manage that. Again I'm not trying to "gotcha" anyone. I'm looking for legitimate suggestions from people who are deep thinkers....not the "shoot 'em and drag 'em in the house" crowd.

It could be anything....say you stop at a gas station to hit the restroom and when you walk out of the restroom the cashier is being threatened at knife point. And yes, convenience stores do get robbed at knife point occasionally. There were 2 or 3 instances of this that I know about in my town a couple of years ago. So you take cover (well...concealment...nothing in a convenience store is really cover) and tell him to drop it ....and he does. You then tell him to get on the ground and he does not comply. He just starts talking and telling you that he knows you won't shoot etc etc.....and the 2 other folks in the store start pointing their cell phones running video instead of calling the cops.....now what?

Too much there for me to address on a computer...for the last part, short answer is that I would direct the clerk to call 911, and continue giving appropriate commands to the BG, whether he obeys or not, until A) the police arrive, B) he flees or C) he attacks me. If A happens and he's still there, great. If B happens, oh well. I'll wait for the cops and give a good description of events. If C happens, too many variables to type, but suffice it to say, BG is likely getting shot at some point. Gun will not be going back in the holster under most circumstances.