Why aren't Serpa and cheap knock offs of Serpas banned by USPSA?

[HopetonBrown]

Is there something about the design of the Supertuck/MTAC/hybrid IWB holsters in general that causes people to do this?

The soft leather backing collapses, making the holster mouth smaller, so they often do the crowbar technique (which isn't a technique) to get it back in.

[Peally]

If I have to RO it's a simple mental rule: when I see a SERPA I know there's DERPA. Only passes are people who disable the button and use them as low retention race holsters.

A lot of equipment makes me cringe and think "great this guy is going to shoot himself". SERPA is on the list along with Uncle Mike's anything and the aforementioned IWB holsters that some boobs can't reholster with without sweeping their entire body multiple times playing holster pool.

[olstyn]

The soft leather backing collapses, making the holster mouth smaller, so they often do the crowbar technique (which isn't a technique) to get it back in.

Huh, mine's leather must be less soft than average, or as I speculated above, maybe my body type is just compatible with that type of holster, because I haven't noticed mine getting floppy at all. (It's actually quite stiff, even after a few years of use.) If it ever gets floppy, I'll immediately stop using it, but for now, I guess it's still ok. I use a CCC TUF for competition and trips to the range for practice, but the CBST gets used for carry quite a bit, as it conceals well and is comfortable.

[HCountyGuy]

Basically, you are saying it is a training issue. I disagree and I believe it is a poor design which sets people up for failure.

In the other Serpa thread, Dr. Meyer gives a very good explanation as to why the design of the Serpa is flawed from a human factors standpoint.

My thumbnail version is guns are designed so that your finger naturally goes to the trigger when you have a proper firing grip, A principal known as Affordance. You are now using your trigger finger to activate a button on the SERPA at the same time you are acquiring a firing grip on the handgun. We train to keep our finger straight as we acquire the fire and grip and draw. In doing so, we are already going against the way the gun is designed. This is sometimes a challenge even with conventional holsters When you start using your trigger finger for other things instead of keeping it straight you are now undermining your own training.

This is on top of the durability issues and the issues with the Serpa mechanism locking up. No thank you.

In my not-so-expert opinion, the issue is people racing to the trigger. This problem exists regardless of what holster a person uses.

The lone advantage of the design of the Serpa, or similarly placed retention button holsters, is that it re-enforces proper indexing. I've been using Serpas for about 5 years now, with a bit of changing to other holsters for experimenting or testing. While other holsters have arguably better construction as far as durability, I fumble more with their retention than with a Serpa. I will note I have yet to try out the 578 GLS series, as I'm not so fond of "one size fits many" designs. But when it comes to thumb releases like the 6378, I've had more bungled draws.

What many people do, is apply pressure solely with the tip of the finger, as opposed to utilizing the distal joint and up. With me, most of the pressure to defeat the Serpa's finger release comes from just above the distal joint on my finger. Thus, my finger maintains its straight placement, and I don't hook the trigger.

In the context of competition shooting, the durability of the Serpa is enough to function adequately for the necessary application. Even the issue with getting debris, dirt or snow beneath the finger release is less likely than having Mike Bloomberg show up to compete for a 3-gun match.

I've been considering recording video of doing something like a thousand consecutive draws with a Serpa just to illustrate how over-blown this supposed finger safety issue is. I'm confident I could run it with my P229 in SA mode without ever having the hammer drop, or even prematurely getting my finger in the trigger guard.

[joshs]

In my not-so-expert opinion, the issue is people racing to the trigger. This problem exists regardless of what holster a person uses.

Most of the issues I've seen come from the shooter trying to draw the gun before the lock is disengaged, this then seems to send a "push harder" signal to the persons index finger causing it to curl into the trigger guard once the pistol clears the holster.

[HCM]

In my not-so-expert opinion, the issue is people racing to the trigger. This problem exists regardless of what holster a person uses.

The lone advantage of the design of the Serpa, or similarly placed retention button holsters, is that it re-enforces proper indexing. I've been using Serpas for about 5 years now, with a bit of changing to other holsters for experimenting or testing. While other holsters have arguably better construction as far as durability, I fumble more with their retention than with a Serpa. I will note I have yet to try out the 578 GLS series, as I'm not so fond of "one size fits many" designs. But when it comes to thumb releases like the 6378, I've had more bungled draws.

What many people do, is apply pressure solely with the tip of the finger, as opposed to utilizing the distal joint and up. With me, most of the pressure to defeat the Serpa's finger release comes from just above the distal joint on my finger. Thus, my finger maintains its straight placement, and I don't hook the trigger.

In the context of competition shooting, the durability of the Serpa is enough to function adequately for the necessary application. Even the issue with getting debris, dirt or snow beneath the finger release is less likely than having Mike Bloomberg show up to compete for a 3-gun match.

I've been considering recording video of doing something like a thousand consecutive draws with a Serpa just to illustrate how over-blown this supposed finger safety issue is. I'm confident I could run it with my P229 in SA mode without ever having the hammer drop, or even prematurely getting my finger in the trigger guard.

In the context of competition shooting, I would agree the surprise is durable enough and lock up is not an issue. In the real world both of those are significant issues since many fights go to the ground.

I am a bit skeptical of Multifit holsters myself. I just ordered a 578 pro fit to experiment with. However, Safari land offers GLS holsters which are made to fit specific guns.I have been running a Safari land 537, the pancake concealment version of the GLS since December. I've used it for qualifications at work and for a training class. So far so good. The GLS is very intuitive and the less you think about it the better it works.

[HopetonBrown]

I've been considering recording video of doing something like a thousand consecutive draws with a Serpa just to illustrate how over-blown this supposed finger safety issue is. I'm confident I could run it with my P229 in SA mode without ever having the hammer drop, or even prematurely getting my finger in the trigger guard.

Be sure to record those 1,000 Serpa draws during a match, classifier, qual or in front of an audience. There should be some element of stress. I think a lot of the pro Serpa people do draws in the bedroom mirror then call it safe.

[rwa]

Only passes are people who disable the button and use them as low retention race holsters.

I tried a Serpa shortly after they were introduced. I disabled the lock by filing the plastic tab/retention device down. I eventually put the holster where it belonged, in the trash bin.

[SLG]

HCountryGuy,

I think you don't understand the issues involved. No one I know thinks that an untrained beginner like you said you were will automatically shoot themselves with a serpa. No one I know thinks that everyone who does 10,000 serpa draws will shoot themselves at some time during those 10,000. There is nothing you can do to prove that the serpa is safe. There is not a skilled, experienced, professional shooter I know of who thinks the serpa is acceptable. That is true for the tactical side as well as the game side. In fact, someone choosing to carry a serpa is proof to me that they do not know very much, regardless of where they work or what they do.

Let's remove the trigger finger activation for a minute. The serpa is just poorly made, and not a high quality holster. Those things don't go along with my ideas of how to effectively defend myself or our society. If you are ok with lower quality equipment that is poorly made and poorly designed, then that's your choice. It's kind of like someone coming on here and saying that their made in China $200 tactical scope is just as good as my Nightforce.

I too think that aiwb is more dangerous than strong side, but I can't prove that. At least a couple of Docs on this forum seem to think it is less dangerous, so pick what you want and take your chances. Just like everything else.

[SLG]

AIWB is not 'more dangerous'. Have you never watched anyone use their pistol muzzle like a a prybar to open their collapsed MTAC, or their SuperTuck, or their Remora, or their 'Elite IWB'? (Forget about just the twig and berries, we're talking ascending colon, descending colon, small intestine, AND twig and berries.) That happens all the time, and nobody has banned any of them; the problem is the user, and/or the training, not the particular holster.



x2

Your example does not support your assertion.