KSTG

[Lon]

I used to shoot 3 gun in Michigan at a club that used these rules:

SCORING

All targets are either Neutralized or Not

Steel targets are neutralized when knocked down

Clay targets are neutralized when broken

Typical USPSA cardboard targets are as follows: ( D - zone are misses )

Rifle - 2 hits C or better

Handgun - 2 hits B or better or 3 hits C or Better

PENALTIES

Failure to Neutralize - add 10 seconds

Shooting a Non-Threat - add 10 seconds

Procedural - add 5 seconds

Unsportsmanlike conduct *- add 30 seconds

I personally liked the way they scored handgun hits and the penalties.

I understand the reason for not allowing duty gear, but would rather see the restrictions Jody puts on his matches than banning duty gear all together. I use the open top pouches at work, but would run a separate rig with a duplicate duty holster and flapped pouches for this if I could.

I think not allowing pistols with 5+" barrels is a good idea if you are trying to keep this geared towards true carry gear. The number of shooters who truly carry the G34/35 on a regular basis is minute. Just like the number of LEOs who wouldnt shoot this just because their duty gear was excluded is minute. If you are trying to get crossover shooters from idpa and uspsa, then it needs reevaluated.

The main concern I have is with the ammo requirements. My concern is with the short barreled carry guns like a Kahr CW9/K9, Walther PPS, etc making the requirements with off the shelf ammo.

I'd shoot it if it gets to my AO.

[jthhapkido]

Looking at the rules, minor bits here and there would taking some getting used to---but quite frankly, the thing that would keep me from shooting it is that my reloads won't work.

It'll make power factor---but not the muzzle energy equation. Matter of fact, out of a 4.25 inch barrel, you are going to find that many people will have difficulty if they happen to use 147 grain bullets. (Which lots of people do for 9mm.)

Lots of 147gr commercial self-defense loads get about 935-945 ft/sec out of a 4.25 in barrel----which isn't going to make Minor under your rules. My reloads out of a G34 get about 960, so they'll be lower out of my G17. And 147gr bullet needs to make at least 959 to be sufficient for your muzzle energy equation. (It'll make power factor easily: 141, when the limit is 125.) And yes, some commercial rounds would manage the muzzle energy requirement---however, people aren't going to want to spend $25 per box of 20 rounds for a match, though.

People shooting 124s and 115s won't have any problem at all, but those 147s----a lot of commercial loads just won't work. And most people don't set up their reloads that hot.

("Hot" being defined in this way for shorter barrels---I know they aren't really "hot" in terms of pressure/recoil, but most people just won't do them that way. Out of a G19, it would be even slower, and that and a G17 are fairly standard carry firearms.)

Just a thought.

[theblacknight]

I'm pretty vocal about IDPA gamers trying to give my the gamer title, but if someone carries all that slide daily(g34), they should shoot it.


That's what I thought IDPA was about, run your carry gear. If you don't feel competitive in a match against other dudes w their carry gear, why do you carry it?

[Mike Honcho]

I don't get the weapon-mounted light rule. I'd say allow them.

[Lon]

Since I don't own a RCS holster, let me ask this - will they hold he gun in off a belt when turned upside down? The one my buddy has won't. On a belt when ur wearing it, no prob, but not by itself. One of the reasons I didn't care for it. I can see the holster test as being an issue for some. I like it, but can see how guys might get upset about it.

[TheRoland]

Since I don't own a RCS holster, let me ask this - will they hold he gun in off a belt when turned upside down? The one my buddy has won't. On a belt when ur wearing it, no prob, but not by itself. One of the reasons I didn't care for it. I can see the holster test as being an issue for some. I like it, but can see how guys might get upset about it.

I'm upset about it for hybrid holsters (which won't retain by design) but all of my kydex holsters, including RCS, retain fine.

The RCSs are especially tight. There may be something wrong with his holster.


Personally, I'd not want the long-slide models of anything to be legal, but the power factor issues concern me.

[theblacknight]

I carry in a MTAC. Can I just bust out a hand stand and be good?

[ToddG]

re: power floors

Random thought of the morning, how about just requiring all ammo to fall within some reasonable limit (say -10%) of standard factor non-target, non-competition, non-+p velocity (or PF?) for a given caliber and bullet weight?

Obviously there would be a certain arbitrariness in setting "standard" but a quick look at the catalogs from the Big Three should be more than adequate.

It would solve the .38 problem while simultaneously preventing the ".45 minor" type issue we were trying to avoid in the first place.

[Lon]

re: power floors

Obviously there would be a certain arbitrariness in setting "standard" but a quick look at the catalogs from the Big Three should be more than adequate.

My only concern with this method is how they come about the average velocities. Are they with 4" guns, 3" guns, etc.? Around here, the most common carry guns (at least from the myriad of shooters I know from competition and classes, etc.) are the subcompact semi-autos - the baby Glocks, the M&Pc models, the Kahrs, the XD compacts, etc. Will these guns make the velocities needed by using catalog data? That's the million dollar question.

I think whatever ammo floors you set should be set with these type guns in mind.

[rsa-otc]

Just had time to read through the rule book. I'm impressed and I like it. It addresses the majority of my beefs with IDPA. Since I do shoot SSR if you can address the PF issue as discussed that would be great.

This really addresses one of my major complaints with IDPA (can't speak to USPSA since I have yet to try that and don't fully understand the scoring system). By using a penalty of 1 second per point down rather than .5, accuracy and well placed shots weight more than speed.

Using the FAST as a means to classification was pure genius. While the IDPA classifier tests a broader range of skills, it can be cumbersome and as mentioned gamed.

I would like to see the ability for uniformed personnel to be able to shoot this with their duty gear, even if it's for a unofficial score. I say uniformed because there are plenty of folks, Armored Car, Armed Security, Private LEO who carry pistols for a living who would like to test their skills outside their agency's training environment. While they may not have the money for a formal class, they can scare up the $20 for a local match fee. And yes I know this is not training. This could be handled on a club level basis I guess.

Todd would you mind if I share this with my local club?