Carbine vs handgun

[okie john]

I should have said this in my initial post -- this wasn't so much which you would pick, since that is obviously a long gun to me, but rather how would a trained good guy do with a pistol against the bad guy with long gun. Also, are there things you could do to improve your odds with a pistol against a rifle, an example being to close with the shooter to take away some of the distance advantage of the long gun.

I get the impression that suicidal jihadis are taught less about sight alignment and trigger control than they are about putting the selector lever in the first position and hosing down crowds of cowering infidels.

I got to fool around quite a bit with unsighted, hand-held full-auto fire when I was in the Army. My team mates and I found out quickly that it's OK against a single target or massed individual targets up close, but that it gets exponentially less effective as distance increases. With that in mind, I think that a trained pistol shooter might be able to do good work IF he keeps his wits about him AND if the long-gunner has NOT had any real marksmanship training AND is on Full Auto. If the bad guy is on semi, then it's a very different ball game because he has at least some idea of what he's doing.

But if the bad guy is spraying and praying, then the hand-gunner might be safer at the far edges of effective pistol range (40-75m) than if he were within 20m, and closing the distance could increase the danger of the bad guy getting a lucky hit.


Okie John

[Clobbersaurus]

My take:

Untrained rifle guy vs untrained pistol guy = bad day for the pistol guy.
Untrained rifle guy vs trained pistol guy = Even-Steven.
Untrained rifle guy vs thoroughly trained pistol guy = bad day for rifle guy.

Trained rifle guy vs untrained pistol guy = really bad day for the pistol guy.
Trained rifle guy vs trained pistol guy = bad day for pistol guy.
Trained rifle guy vs thoroughly trained pistol guy = Even-Steven.

Thoroughly trained rifle guy vs untrained pistol guy = really bad day for pistol guy.
Thoroughly trained rifle guy vs trained pistol guy = really bad day for pistol guy.
Thoroughly trained rifle guy vs thoroughly trained pistol guy = bad day for pistol guy.

Trained = guy who has taken a course or two and trains semi regularly.
Thoroughly trained = has taken numerous courses and trains regularly.

[Stone]

I should have said this in my initial post -- this wasn't so much which you would pick, since that is obviously a long gun to me, but rather how would a trained good guy do with a pistol against the bad guy with long gun. Also, are there things you could do to improve your odds with a pistol against a rifle, an example being to close with the shooter to take away some of the distance advantage of the long gun.

Training ,training and more training. Train for this scenario. Cover, I mean hard cover. Behind a concrete wall, engine block because that AR is going to punch through most things. Situational awareness is going to be key. If the bullets are flying already flanking them and taking a head shot would be the way to go. A head on engagement would probably be suicide. Keeping cool, most people don't know how to react in these situations because they have never been in one. Adrenaline will be going mach 2 and controlling the fear is key. Always leave yourself an out, look for the exits. Running from a guy with an AR spraying bullets all over the place and hell bent on killing people doesn't make you a coward. Getting yourself to a good position and wait for them to reload and then advance, may just work. I highly doubt they are doing 3 second reloads.

[Lester Polfus]

While it is certainly much easier to get hits with a carbine, it is still possible to shoot one very badly. Most of us on here are "above average" to "way above average" shooters, and probably associate with the same, so its easy to forget what lousy shots most people are. I live a few miles from a popular Cleeti blasting range, and on my way to a more secluded shooting spot, I often pause and watch people shoot their AR-15's very poorly.

Last time I received any formal schooling on domestic active shooters, many of them were "obsessed with weapons" but had very little real ability to use them well. Sitting at home obsessively loading and unloading your AK drums while muttering about the assholes at work isn't the same thing as training.

Likewise, while the media breathlessly talks about "trained terrorists," unless something has changed since I was in the loop, most of their training actually revolves around "indoctrination," geared more towards making these shitbirds willing to blow themselves up. Sure they learn how to make pipe bombs, which your average high school kid learns off the internet, and how to shoot an AK in some random direction, but it's not like they are going to the Jihadi version of Midsouth Shooting School. One thing I've noticed about third world armies is what they want out of their troops isn't competency, it's loyalty, and the thought of having a bunch of really highly trained guys running around makes them more than a little nervous. I'm sure that goes for these terrorist leaders too, if you've got a guy who is dumbass enough to go on a suicide mission, you don't need or want him to be all that GOOD at anything.

Also, fundamentally, these people are chickenshits. While I never responded to an active shooter, I've lost count of the number of people who were impressed by their own sheer badassery when it came to terrorizing people weaker than them, only to have their shit turn to water when they ran into somebody who actually had a pair of balls.

So yeah, the platforms matter, and pistol v. rifle is bad juju if you are holding the pistol, but skill counts for a bunch, and so does something that doesn't get talked about much these days: courage.

Tactically, probably the best way to eat this shit sandwich would be to use maneuver to get into a place where you could put around in the back of the shooters head while he or she is fixated on mowing down nuns and orphans.

Personally, my biggest mitigation against this sort of thing is I live up on a mountain and don't go into town very much. When we do, we avoid shopping malls and the like, mostly because we just don't like them. That's not a reality for everybody though.

As we continue our post-baby recover, I'm making more time to train, and prioritizing longer range shooting, exactly because of this sort of thing.

[The Apprentice]

Carbine definately easier to shoot but heres my problem its impractical for use as a armed civilian. Realistically it is going to remain in a somewhat static position i.e. a trunk. Which mean in an active shooter type situation you would have to retrive it. Now how will this be perceived by others shoots fired and then I see someone running in with an ar-15 or ak my go to responce would be that this isnt right people dont run around with long guns. I think the risk of being mistaken as an attacker is to high in situations like this. Persons are smart people are dumb large groups of panicing people are stupid. If having a carbine in the trunk makes you feel better by all means go for it.

[The Apprentice]

I should have said this in my initial post -- this wasn't so much which you would pick, since that is obviously a long gun to me, but rather how would a trained good guy do with a pistol against the bad guy with long gun. Also, are there things you could do to improve your odds with a pistol against a rifle, an example being to close with the shooter to take away some of the distance advantage of the long gun.

Sorry missed this. I dont like my odd and unless it is a direct threat on me and mine its a tactical retreat unless I have the drop on them. I would do all I can to help those around me but I'm not running in to the situation to be the hero. I think practicing at longer ranges such as 50 yard would definately up your odds a lot as well but you are at a big disadvantage. That carbine is more effective at range and will penetrate cover a lot better than any handgun round.

[dkv]

Unless you're carrying a long gun during the course of your daily routine, the chances are you'll have to fight with what you brought to any sort of active shooter / in extremis situation. As such, I predicate the bulk of my training on the handgun, since it's with my every day.

Thank you for articulating this "obviousism." I've been spending all of my range time with rifles recently.

[dkv]

I am interested in opinions on how folks think a service pistol stacks up against a carbine, in terms of placing hits, in the distance envelope attacks happened in Paris and CA?

How much does an optic-equipped pistol change the balance in the 20-50-100 meter engagement (if that is distance in consideration)?

[Hambo]

We shot the same qualification course with M4s and MP5s. At distance it is much easier for me to get repetitive A zone hits with a subgun/carbine than a pistol.

At close range there is no advantage save increased ammo capacity and there are a few potential problems.

As I said in the San Berdoo thread, these guys are never well trained. The main advantage they have is surprise and numbers. If you aren't the first guy hit and it's one on one I'd say it's an even fight, maybe leaning toward you if you disrupt their OODA loop. If 3-4 of them triangulate on you, not so much. If you have a trained, armed friend/spouse with you, you increase the odds in your favor. If you kill the first guy, you win a free long gun upgrade.

[41magfan]

The distance of the engagement obviously plays into any hypothetical comparison, but I think it's an undeniable fact that long-guns (in almost every guise) are superior weapons in all but the closest encounters ... all things being equal. As previously stated, long-guns aren't weapons of convenience so their use isn't very relevant to the defensive scenarios most citizens would likely encounter outside of their home or business.

I can say this with some certainty, I've seen some pretty unskilled users - armed with long-guns - absolutely dominate their opponent(s) that were only armed with handguns. Anyone that encounters an opponent so armed is a fool if he doesn't recognize the disparity in the ability to project force.