The truth about pocket folders as defensive tools?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Maybe you're missing something, but maybe it's just your hand mechanics.

For example, on my kershaw emerson, if I go for it in my pocket I'll lay my thumb on on the side of the grip, and the tip of my thumb is pretty much even with the end of the knife. As in my thumb is more than four inches long because I have gorilla hands. When I draw it, I have three fingers on the grip, which I guess is enough for me...I think? If I had to instantly slash something I could, but more importantly I can shift my grip pretty much instantly from the "front's got to be open folder grip" to the "monkey with a screwdriver" grip SouthNarc talks about.

But if you find you can do better with a flipper, then I don't think anyone else's preference for waved folders should hold you back for a second. If it were me, I guess I'd try to locate a trainer, make sure you're still good while some rugby union prop is slapping you around, and if so, rock on.


As far as pointy goes the Commander looks a little "pointless" to me but part of that is that I like the tip to be in line with the centre line of the handle.

But I have also just adapted totally general-purpose knives to shanking duty, so it's entirely possible that I started with the conclusion "this simple knife will work great" and then judged everything by its similarity to my initial decision.

OTOH we've been building shivs out of rock for a jillion years and they don't look like a Commander. They look like the tip of a spear because that's what a spear is. So I'd much rather have something that reminded me of a spear.

[DI1]

OTOH we've been building shivs out of rock for a jillion years and they don't look like a Commander. They look like the tip of a spear because that's what a spear is. So I'd much rather have something that reminded me of a spear.

This is spot on! Spear points or similar designs are what works and have worked since man sharpened wood, stone, iron and steel.
Of all the Emerson knives, the CQC8 was my favorite as it works well in reverse grip. I have since sold it and moved on. A folder needs to LOCK completely open 100% of the time in order for you to use it with confidence. Most folders will not do this that is why serious users prefer fixed blade knives for any type of defensive/offensive use. A folder is ok as a utility knife.

[SAWBONES]

While "tactical folders" continue to be marketed as though they were wonderful defensive tools, IMNSHO if you truly need an edged weapon for personal defense, you'll need it instantly in your, hand ready to go, with no lever to flip, no Spidey hole to thumb or "wave" to snag just so. Too many times, these actions simply aren't guaranteed to get the knife fully open and the blade locked.

Folders are great for all sorts of uses, but for personal protection purposes, I'll have a fixed blade.

[StraitR]

While I appreciate the input, we're really trying to establish the merits of folding knives in a defensive role, and how that is accomplished. Everyone agrees that a fixed blade is a much better choice, and for practically everything except convenience. That said, not everyone can legally carry a fixed blade, and for those that can, carrying one may not be an option due to dress. For example, I can carry a fixed blade legally here in FL, but cannot while I'm at work in dress pants, shirt, and tie. I can, however, slip a folder down into the pocket of my dress pants or clipped to the pocket on more casual dress days.

So, it's been established that a fixed blade would inherently be better for the role, but we'll assume moving forward that's not an option.

[NickA]

From my limited knowledge I'd agree with most of the above, not optimal, but doable. I've seen personally, and heard other reports of, people successfully using folders in ECQC evos. Mostly waved Spydercos.
As far as specific training, other than the Insights course Michael de Bethencourt is the only one I'm aware of:

http://snubtraining.com/essentials-o...folding-knife/

No personal experience with him though; I planned to take this a few years ago but it was cancelled at the last minute.

[Default.mp3]

One thing I'm trying to figure out is how to deploy a knife with the wave feature more effectively. My plight, which I notice in every video of someone demonstrating the deployment of a waved knife, is that I end up with a poor grip that needs substantial readjustment. After the knife clears the pocked, fully locked open, what I'm left with is two fingers and thumb on the knife. So, I know it's fast into action, but what am I missing when it comes to getting it out of my pocket with a usable grip?

Consider drawing into a reverse grip, edge out, which is to say, have the wave catch the front edge of your pocket rather than the back edge, with the pocket clip mounted for "left side" carry, but carried in the right pocket (or the inverse); I have found that to be a bit faster in getting a waved blade into play with a proper grip, while also avoiding the pitfall of having the blade deploy so far back. Only downside is that comfort can be lessened.

[DI1]

If you can legally carry a fixed blade in Florida, then I would slip a small fixed blade into your pocket like a Gerber Guardian ( inexpensive) or Strider SLCC ( expensive). You can use the pocket shield from Raven Concealment to make sure the knife does not shift while in pocket. Look at some options from Bladerigs.com
I personally dislike having a clip of a knife showing as that is a giveaway that you are armed and are most likely carrying something else as well.

[okie john]

My rule: if I can't reliably do it while completely wasted, I probably couldn't do it while fighting off a hard bell-ring.

Damned good standard, and sig line material.


Okie John

[Maple Syrup Actual]

If you're prepared to train that draw and commit to that specific knife I think it's the best defensive folder going.

I found that I did not personally put the time in to be happy with my performance with it, simply because I do use my knife a lot and drawing it every time into a fighting position was both inconvenient and made me seem crazy.

But for people who are going to make a folder a major part of their fighting gear, this is totally the best way to do it. I am 100% cognizant of the fact that my "just treat it like a knife" approach means my drawstroke is a little slower and more easily fouled. But for someone who isn't going to train a particular defensive folder draw, I think it makes sense to train badly anyway.

For example, I don't think there's a highjumper in the world that doesn't train the fosbury flop, and if you're a highjumper and you're training to clear a bar, you better be training that way.

If you're some guy who has to hop over a four foot fence at work a few times a day, you probably aren't going to commit that level of training and you might be better served by some simpler, worse, technique.

But I have also found when grappling that it's unusual that I can't get my strong side hip cocked back and freed up enough to get to a pocket and my hand free enough to draw. The people that can stop me are the Southnarcs of the world, who can probably go back and retroactively kick my ass before I got out of bed in the morning. They're the fosbury people and I know they're better than me, and I guess I just go through life hoping that somebody set the bar pretty low for me, so I can clear it.

[Hatchetman]

Various thoughts:

Check your local laws re blade length. In my area it's three inches (not really, but that's what a lot of cops think), so that's the size of my folders.

Deployment methods. More is better, IMO. I've carried a folder of various types for 40+ years and have found it's good to know multiple ways to deploy a folder. I've hung on muddy ropes and had to deploy a folder one handed to cut material out of a rappel device a caving partner had jammed up, opened 'em under water, with my hand covered in animal fat, and so on. Different methods work for different needs; Greg Ellifritz has a good class that teaches these. Some of my favorites are:

Pinch and throw.

Thumb stud.

Stud a little and then wrist flick out.

Inertia, throw blade down, rotate 90 and flick out.

You can also:

Use two hands.

Use a Wave.

Use an auto.

I'm not a fan of Waves and autos. I think knives are weapons of stealth, weapons best deployed in advance of need that an opponent doesn't know about until tender parts start getting aerated. The gross motion required to deploy a Wave, and the noise both Waves and autos make when deploying gum up stealth. IMO if trouble is coming a blade should be quietly deployed and palmed in reverse grip with blade forward so it can be instantly put into use should you need to defend your life with it. As I see it, too much knife training occurs in what I call a West Side Story context: two opponents square off, whip out their autos, glare at each other mano a mano, and then proceed with the Dance of Death or whatnot. That's silly. I think you are far better off learning how to subtly open you knife in advance of need, hold it stealthily, and then employ it unceremoniously.

Full disclosure: I used training folders (non-waved) in ECQC. I had no problem deploying them under pressure as described above. I was critiqued, however, for going too stabby too fast, which I think was in part due to having a blade in hand in advance of contact and the adrenalized situations we were put in. With that said I've been told by many that I'd have trouble deploying a non-waved folder under stress. That proved not to be the case from guard and in other entangled positions.

Training. Formal training doesn't hurt for the most part--though there is a lot of stupid stuff being taught. My advice is to instead buy a folder that suits you, and then use it as your dinner/paring/whittling/whatever blade. Get as many reps in a day as you can deploying it and using it so that having that knife appear in your hand becomes second nature. I was a chef for 20 years and so had an excuse to have a paring sized blade appear in my hand several dozen times a day. All those reps under all sorts of circumstances have served me well.

I've been blown feces for saying this before, but I think there is a lot of value in purchasing cheaper knives to train with and beat to death. Too many times I've seen people pick up $300 pocket queens that they don't want to use as described above. There is no point in buying a carry blade you won't use for any need that arises, and if your variable blade geometry Damascus fossilized aardvark handled folder is too pretty to use hard, then I say don't use it as a primary carry blade.

My favorite knife to recommend to people is a CRKT Ryan model 7. Yes, I know, it's not the sexiest, the best steel, the coolest locking mechanism, or whatever, but they can be had for under 30 bucks, work pretty darn well, lend themselves to a variety of opening and carry methods, are fairly robust (I can make one fail the spine test), and make for a good utility blade.

What I really like about them, however, is that there is a trainer out there that darn near well replicates the Ryan 7s ergonomics. I've seen it at Asian World of Martial Arts and other places. I think it's difficult to overstate the importance of training with a drone with the same mechanics as your carry knife as the drone allows you to pressure test your assumptions. Indeed, I have my students carry a drone during class. If they are involved in a drill, get in over their heads, they are welcome to cut their way out of it with the drone. If you are not deploying and employing your carry knife (drone) under pressure it's all to easy to fall into West Side Story skippy whipping.

Note: the Ryan 7 drones have hardware that works its way loose with use. I Locktite mine.

Favorite drill. I walk a lot between buildings in outside areas. As I do so I encounter various bits of vegetation encroaching on sidewalks. When this happens I use my carry folder to do some trimming. The rules are: I must deploy, cut, and repocket the blade in a smooth motion; I can't break stride or telegraph intent; nobody can see me do it. This drill forces all sorts of things: accuracy on the move, smooth deployment mechanics, situational awareness, and so on. It focusses more on slashing, which is a downside--most effective knife offense comes off penetrating wounds--but you can shadow a couple stabs before repocketing to get those reps in.

Knife use and evaluation strategy. I buy and play with a lot of knives. I usually carry a right and left side folder either in the pocket or AIWB depending on dress and circumstance. I'm a righty so the right side blade is my utility/go to blade, usually a Ryan 7. My left side blade is whatever I'm currently evaluating. Left side blade is kept pristine and used for fine cutting chores. Right side is the beater. When the right side sees too much milage it goes into the retirement drawer (from which my kids, students, Scouts, whomever I work with get their first blade). If I like the left pocket blade, it gets moved to the right one, and the process begins again.

Dark alley habits. If I'm out and about and see something I don't like left side folder gets quietly opened and palmed, leaving the right to access my firearm. Haven't had it happen, but if an entanglement were to occur the folder would be used to make space before the gun appeared. If a two handed grip is indicated the folder would be chucked in advance.