Handgun Caliber that has edge in Lethal Encounter

[Hauptmann]

LE shootings, in aggregate, involve longer distances, involve more moving targets, involve more use of cover and intermediate barriers, and involve more reacting to ambush (ie being shot at first and reacting). Random violence victims tend strongly to be within arms length and no more than 7', rarely have any sort of intermediate barrier at the beginning of the fight, and are forcing the bad guy to react to them (pulling a concealed weapon during a robbery or the like).

Our department has a higher than normal hit rate, which is primarily due to realistic training and simunition use IMO...but it still drops off dramatically as the encounter lengthens. Shooting a man sized target at 3' and hitting a suspect laying behind a car and parking bump at 25y in the dark will generally change hit rates.

Right on the money. It doesn't matter if we are talking higher trained officers or not, the miss percentage is still high LE due to the characteristics of the ambush. I can site a number of former and current SWAT 1-on-1 OISs that occured during regular patrol that resulted in well over 30rds fired before the threat was stopped. Multiple torso hits with .45acp JHPs, and head shots were required to stop the bad guy from shooting back. Officer Keith Borders and Officer Tim Gramins were two such high volume .45acp shootings that required head shots to win the fight. Officer Peter Soulis is another good example of a 1-on-1 shootout with a larger caliber and high round count.

Aim better, shoot faster, and carry a lot of bullets is the best advice.

[LSP972]

Right on the money. It doesn't matter if we are talking higher trained officers or not, the miss percentage is still high LE due to the characteristics of the ambush. I can site a number of former and current SWAT 1-on-1 OISs that occured during regular patrol that resulted in well over 30rds fired before the threat was stopped. Multiple torso hits with .45acp JHPs, and head shots were required to stop the bad guy from shooting back. Officer Keith Borders and Officer Tim Gramins were two such high volume .45acp shootings that required head shots to win the fight. Officer Peter Soulis is another good example of a 1-on-1 shootout with a larger caliber and high round count.

Aim better, shoot faster, and carry a lot of bullets is the best advice.

I'm experiencing a bit of deja vu here. For those of us still wearing the uniform, still chasing bad guys, the above advice is indeed right on the money. But I think the OP's question was regarding his PERSONAL carry piece as an armed citizen. The difference has been mentioned here a time or two, but the majority of the thread participants seem to be harping on what is needed for an active, aggressive law enforcer; not an armed citizen looking to mind his own business and protect his own. For some who may not have figured it out yet, the two scenarios are worlds apart.

I'm reminded of many of the responses I got when, in another thread, I was musing about what carbine to purchase. While it was all well-intentioned and sincere, much of the advice I got seemed to be predicated on me headed to a combat zone in full kit. Ah... no. BTDT. Those days are over. Just as my days of chasing bad guys as the po-lice are over.

Certainly, there are overlaps between the two worlds. But they are most definitely different.

.

[veteran-USMC]

I'm experiencing a bit of deja vu here. For those of us still wearing the uniform, still chasing bad guys, the above advice is indeed right on the money. But I think the OP's question was regarding his PERSONAL carry piece as an armed citizen. The difference has been mentioned here a time or two, but the majority of the thread participants seem to be harping on what is needed for an active, aggressive law enforcer; not an armed citizen looking to mind his own business and protect his own. For some who may not have figured it out yet, the two scenarios are worlds apart.

I'm reminded of many of the responses I got when, in another thread, I was musing about what carbine to purchase. While it was all well-intentioned and sincere, much of the advice I got seemed to be predicated on me headed to a combat zone in full kit. Ah... no. BTDT. Those days are over. Just as my days of chasing bad guys as the po-lice are over.

I certainly agee with everything in your post.
Many thanks for your experienced insight! When an attacker confronts someone -they either piss in their pants,turn tail and run, or fall down & give up or advance in their attack. Most people don't realize that an attack inside the home might be decided in 1.26 bullets. I have practiced the tueller drill which gives you aprox. 1.26 seconds(amazing how much ground can be covered in 1.26 seconds!

My question is--with maybe having the time to fire 1-2 rounds(if your lucky) --What .357 revolver would you recommend to me. Our local range has many for rent!
Have you shot or heard how good a S&W Model 19 .357 Combat Magnum (2.5 " barrel) is?
Again thanks for your time & experience!

Semper Fi!
Mike

Certainly, there are overlaps between the two worlds. But they are most definitely different.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've found the good Dr's quote to be true in my experience;

“…there is no appreciable difference in the effectiveness of the 9 mm and the .45 ACP cartridges.”
Vincent J. M. Di Maio, GUNSHOT WOUNDS: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques SECOND EDITION, Page 150.

Our local coroner backed me up when I went to the Chief to advocate that we dump the non working G22s we had and go back to 9mms. Doc was firmly of the opinion that the 9mm worked as well as the .40 in his observation, and JHPs from the 9 expended much more reliably on the street than the .45 shootings he had seen.


Locally, we had fewer shots fired in OISs after we went to double stack 9mms from .357 mags, and have kept a rather high hit rate going for decades, at one point in my time as the rangemaster we went nine OISs in 18 months with 100% hits. Up until a couple of recent incidents, one being a mobile active-shooter armed with an AR (which you might expect to turn into a high round count event) we hadn't fired more than four rounds to put a bad guy down, in a time frame of almost 30 years.

9mm being cheaper to train with helps the program, a lot.

[psalms144.1]

Mike - I'm not sure you're hearing what a lot of folks have been suggesting, and I think you've convinced yourself that your Home Defense scenario will be a single, non-dedicated threat (the guy who "pisses his pants" for instance. What if your really bad day is a group of dedicated, experienced, and heavily armed home invasion types? That's the LAST possible time I'd want a hard-kicking, low capacity, slow to reload handgun.

But, it sounds like you've convinced yourself that you want "more power," in the form of a .357 wheelie. The Model 19 is a great concealed carry gun (if I could find one at a fair price I'd snap it up, just out of nostalgia) but, for home defense, why hamper yourself with a short(ish) barrel? For HD, within reason, weight is your friend. I'd look for a 4" pistol - S&W 686 is a good place to start, the Ruger GP100 was always a good performer for me as well.

I will bow out at this point, though, and let Nyeti or some of the other revolver experts add their comments.

Best of luck!

[veteran-USMC]

Mike - I'm not sure you're hearing what a lot of folks have been suggesting, and I think you've convinced yourself that your Home Defense scenario will be a single, non-dedicated threat (the guy who "pisses his pants" for instance. What if your really bad day is a group of dedicated, experienced, and heavily armed home invasion types? That's the LAST possible time I'd want a hard-kicking, low capacity, slow to reload handgun.

But, it sounds like you've convinced yourself that you want "more power," in the form of a .357 wheelie. The Model 19 is a great concealed carry gun (if I could find one at a fair price I'd snap it up, just out of nostalgia) but, for home defense, why hamper yourself with a short(ish) barrel? For HD, within reason, weight is your friend. I'd look for a 4" pistol - S&W 686 is a good place to start, the Ruger GP100 was always a good performer for me as well.

I will bow out at this point, though, and let Nyeti or some of the other revolver experts add their comments.

Best of luck!

Hi psalms144.1! Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression of needing just the power of a 357 magnum revolver! Guess I am from the old school & have to accept that sometimes home invasions are done by 2-5 people! Thus any revolver is going to leave you dead! In the Marines as an MP I had 2 shooting incidences with a 45 caliber Colt with full metal jacket. In each case 1 round stopped the target. I was taught in the Marines that after the second shot absorbed by your target that the brains pain recepters shut off-thus taking more rounds to stop an attacker with whatever ammo you are using. My question to you psalms144.1 is I am deciding between 45caliber & 9mm handgun--any opinions? People think that a shot to the head is their answer to stopping an attacker but fail to realize that in a shooting encounter the head is moving along with other factors.


thanks for your thoughts.
Semper Fi!

[Paladin]

Until then, I think I'll muddle along with a lesser number of bigger bullets. {QUOTE}


Go ahead and count this stolen, and the for the same reasons mentioned above as well as my nephew being a emergencey room Dr. in San Bernardino Ca. and stating they could always tell by the damage done when it was caused by a 45 because it was more signifiant. Thats not to say anything is wrong with 9mm as also shoot and carry that as well just prefer 45 in a Dan Wesson CCO.

Rick

[RevolverRob]

Thing is, unlike rifle bullets, where there's a significant difference between, say, .22-250 and .45-70, all service caliber pistol bullets are traveling at pretty much the same speed. The difference in "drop" at fifty yards between the slowest .45ACP and the fastest .357SIG is, what? Two inches? Three?

According to this table - http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm - About seven inches between .357 Sig and .45. Much closer between 9mm and .357 Sig (about two inches).

Part of it is trajectory, but part of it is velocity too. At 100 yards a 125-grain Gold Dot from a .357 Magnum is still supersonic at 100 yards, the 9mm has been subsonic since about 50 yards. That's a difference in terms of terminal effectiveness on longer distance shots. But yes, overall, I agree that in service caliber bullets it's mostly a mute point. My point is, if one suspects they will spend an extended period of time working in a place where a longer shot might be more likely for whatever reason, I'd move away from a service caliber gun to something better suited for the purpose. I.E. see TC's post - or I.E. a magnum revolver, or a hurty-McBlaster in 10mm with a lot of oomph on both ends.

[Tamara]

According to this table - http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm - About seven inches between .357 Sig and .45. Much closer between 9mm and .357 Sig (about two inches).

...and that's at a hundred. At fifty, they're all pretty much the same.

But, yeah, for Farmer Frank James, there was a reason he so loved his .41s and 10mms. I don't shoot 75 yard coyotes from a tractor seat very often.

[Chuck Haggard]

I was taught in the Marines that after the second shot absorbed by your target that the brains pain recepters shut off-thus taking more rounds to stop an attacker with whatever ammo you are using

That's a commonly repeated myth.