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Thread: U.S. Army Switching to Hollow Point Ammunition

  1. #81
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Sean M, thank you for the outstanding posts above--some of the best I have read in quite a while! It is interesting that your comments on shooting cadence, assessing the target's reaction, and shot accountability so closely hew to what other experienced LE folks like Nyeti have been preaching for years.
    Yes and I've taken what those folks (Nyeti and Chuck come first to mind) seriously in my prep. I've more work to do to get more "performance" oriented vs "outcome" oriented though (the PatMac concepts).
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean M View Post
    The only way I can do that is to assess what my fired rounds did to my lethal threat. I do not pause, or shoot a pre-determined cadence, however I am assessing if the threat is still a threat throughout the entire engagemnt.

    Inside 15 yards, my default target zone/POA for a lethal threat is the brain box. I fire my round, and as I go through the recoil, and trigger reset process, I am making an assessment of "Did I hit him/her?", "Did it have the desired effect?", "Are there any other imminent threats I need to find?" I don't skip questions, ask them out of order, and I don't move onto the next one until the current question has been accurately answered.

    I get it that we can shoot extremely fast. But we also have a legal and moral obligation, to account for each and every round we fire. I personally subscribe to the concept/theory of don't shoot faster than I can think. Top quality, realistic, high pressure training, along with experience will help speed along & integrate the processes of shooting and thinking into a seemless and effecient method of problem solving using my gun.

    [...]
    I am simply saying you fire a round, and determine if it did what you needed it to do. I don't stop anything. I don't look over the sights, or come to a ready position. The "assess" happens quickly during actual lethal force encounters, but this is where the realistic training and proper mental preparation come into play, to have you "assess" as natural and subconscious as the draw stroke, or a mag change.

    Certainly for most people the priority is the make sure they survive. But this illustrates the need to assess during the fight. You cannot have a successful outcome if you are shooting and missing. The only way you know you are missing is by this "assess".
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean M View Post
    This also brings up "sighted" versus "Unsighted" fire in a real world context that has ramifications on "da street".
    I apologize in advance for rehashing topics discussed elsewhere on p-f and derailing, but Sean, can you discuss what is going on with your visual and mental focus throughout these encounters? For example, are you keeping a hard front sight focus visually throughout the entire threat presence, but mentally focusing on the peripheral vision, looking for positive indicators that the threat has ceased? Do you hard front sight focus at all in practice, if so when does do the focus shifts happen (e.g. pressout?)?

    I should note here that I'm asking specifically about pistols with iron sights.

    Disclaimer: I realize this may be a complicated, nuanced issue; that memory under stress is complicated; that what we do, what we should do, what we practice, and what we should practice are all separate concepts; and so on.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by dove View Post
    Do you hard front sight focus at all in practice,
    To clarify, by "in practice" I don't mean in training, but rather in real encounters.

  4. #84
    Site Supporter Odin Bravo One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dove View Post
    ................ can you discuss what is going on with your visual and mental focus throughout these encounters? For example, are you keeping a hard front sight focus visually throughout the entire threat presence, but mentally focusing on the peripheral vision, looking for positive indicators that the threat has ceased? Do you hard front sight focus at all in practice, if so when does do the focus shifts happen (e.g. pressout?)?
    To be perfectly honest............I don't know.

    I have never had video of my performance under those conditions, so I can't say for a fact what is actually happening. I also have very few handgun encounters, so my experience in the specifc realm of iron sighted pistol is quite limited.

    That said, I don't have different actions or tactics when shooting rifle, shotgun, or pistol, so I can tell you what I believe (and hope) I am doing, even if I don't have hard evidence to back it up.

    I rarely use a hard sight focus for actual fighting, and prefer to use a blurred sight picture. The exception to this is when presenting to the target, I do have a tendency to find and focus on the front sight (or RDS), even if only for a split second. I don't know if this is good, bad, or indifferent, nor do I have a method to measure or prove which, if any is the answer to the question.

    I generally focus on the target, while my sights (or RDS) are blurred. This allows for immediate & continuous assessment of the threat, his/her actions and reactions, and status, without being distracted by switching back and forth bewteen the sights and the threat. My opinion is I can shoot "good enough" with blurred sights at most CQB/CQC ranges(distances), and the person who is the threat is the center of my visual attention, as well as my mental focus. I do not concern myself terribly with peripheral vision for the most part. Depending on pucker factor, there can be the tunnel vision issue, which can be trained and conditioned to minimal impact, however it sometimes happens anyway. The big reason I don't concern myself with the peripheral is that I am engaging a lethal threat right now, and that is more important than anything else at that moment. The rules of Close Quarters Combat say to take your threats as they come to you. If I allow myself to be distracted by something other than the immediate danger, I am less effective and less effecient in dealing with said danger. I will deal with the next threat when I am done with the first, and I don't need the extra headache of trying to OODA more than one problem at a time. Once I have an initial assessment that the hostilities between myself and the lethal threat I have been engaged with are over, I intentionally and methodically search for my next threat using my eyes to focus on potential threats with blurred sights, my firearm matching my eyes in where it is pointed. I then return to assess the initial threat, and one more search for next threat. Assuming there is none, I then close on the initial threat, and determine his/her actual status.

    This is NOT something I recommend and I would NOT do this in a self-defense/home defense situation. In a SD/HD situation it does nothing for you but place you in danger after you have gained the tactical advantage, and it is completely unnecessary. Continue to hold on the threat, wait for the police to arrive, and follow their instructions to the letter.

    The process to shift visual focus from the initial threat to clearing the area, back to the initial threat, and again visually looking for the next threat takes only a split second to complete, but it does take a lot of training and a lot of practice to develop proficiency, effeciency, and ensure you are effectively seeing everything you need to see, and positively identifying/assessing threats. The good news is that this is something easily practiced, even without a gun, and just about anywhere you go.

    Interestingly enough, when shooting plate racks, or other falling steel/reactive targets, where assessing the effectiveness of each round is required, I tend to hard focus on the front sight. Why? I'm not entirely sure. I hypothesize it is because subconsciouly I know I am playing a game with a plethors of targets that should fall with one hit versus very few targets, each of which are actually dangerous, and will generally require multiple rounds to remove them from the equation.

    Did that make any sense? Hopefully it did, and was helpful to someone.
    Last edited by Odin Bravo One; 07-16-2015 at 10:44 PM. Reason: Clarity.

  5. #85
    Site Supporter JM Campbell's Avatar
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    Absolutely helpful, thank you for taking the time to post that.

  6. #86
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    Thanks Sean, outstanding information.

  7. #87
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Thanks for your input, Sean.

  8. #88
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Excellent post Sean.

    Thank you.

  9. #89
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    Great help! Thanks Sean!

  10. #90
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean M View Post
    To be perfectly honest............I don't know.

    I have never had video of my performance under those conditions, so I can't say for a fact what is actually happening. I also have very few handgun encounters, so my experience in the specifc realm of iron sighted pistol is quite limited.

    That said, I don't have different actions or tactics when shooting rifle, shotgun, or pistol, so I can tell you what I believe (and hope) I am doing, even if I don't have hard evidence to back it up.

    I rarely use a hard sight focus for actual fighting, and prefer to use a blurred sight picture. The exception to this is when presenting to the target, I do have a tendency to find and focus on the front sight (or RDS), even if only for a split second. I don't know if this is good, bad, or indifferent, nor do I have a method to measure or prove which, if any is the answer to the question.

    I generally focus on the target, while my sights (or RDS) are blurred. This allows for immediate & continuous assessment of the threat, his/her actions and reactions, and status, without being distracted by switching back and forth bewteen the sights and the threat. My opinion is I can shoot "good enough" with blurred sights at most CQB/CQC ranges(distances), and the person who is the threat is the center of my visual attention, as well as my mental focus. I do not concern myself terribly with peripheral vision for the most part. Depending on pucker factor, there can be the tunnel vision issue, which can be trained and conditioned to minimal impact, however it sometimes happens anyway. The big reason I don't concern myself with the peripheral is that I am engaging a lethal threat right now, and that is more important than anything else at that moment. The rules of Close Quarters Combat say to take your threats as they come to you. If I allow myself to be distracted by something other than the immediate danger, I am less effective and less effecient in dealing with said danger. I will deal with the next threat when I am done with the first, and I don't need the extra headache of trying to OODA more than one problem at a time. Once I have an initial assessment that the hostilities between myself and the lethal threat I have been engaged with are over, I intentionally and methodically search for my next threat using my eyes to focus on potential threats with blurred sights, my firearm matching my eyes in where it is pointed. I then return to assess the initial threat, and one more search for next threat. Assuming there is none, I then close on the initial threat, and determine his/her actual status.

    This is NOT something I recommend and I would NOT do this in a self-defense/home defense situation. In a SD/HD situation it does nothing for you but place you in danger after you have gained the tactical advantage, and it is completely unnecessary. Continue to hold on the threat, wait for the police to arrive, and follow their instructions to the letter.

    The process to shift visual focus from the initial threat to clearing the area, back to the initial threat, and again visually looking for the next threat takes only a split second to complete, but it does take a lot of training and a lot of practice to develop proficiency, effeciency, and ensure you are effectively seeing everything you need to see, and positively identifying/assessing threats. The good news is that this is something easily practiced, even without a gun, and just about anywhere you go.

    Interestingly enough, when shooting plate racks, or other falling steel/reactive targets, where assessing the effectiveness of each round is required, I tend to hard focus on the front sight. Why? I'm not entirely sure. I hypothesize it is because subconsciouly I know I am playing a game with a plethors of targets that should fall with one hit versus very few targets, each of which are actually dangerous, and will generally require multiple rounds to remove them from the equation.

    Did that make any sense? Hopefully it did, and was helpful to someone.
    Fascinating. Esp the part about the blurred sights and sharp target focus. Ben Stoeger encouraged shooters to try that on the Gen 1 Doodie forum; saying you may be surprised what you can do. I've never given it much time. Really interesting.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

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