Mission Drives the Gear Train - Home Defense Carbine

[GLOCKMASTER]

Maybe it is a Mid-West thing, although I did a fair amount of teaching outside that area, and everybody I can remember used the term the same (loaded magazine, chamber empty, trigger pulled, off safe). So you have always kept shotguns cocked and the safety on, requiring that you find the action bar release and hit it before you can pump the slide? Seems like a bit of extra that doesn't do much, IMO.

I would use the safety if there was a round in the chamber. Otherwise, as I said, it seems somewhat problematic. It eliminates the commonality factor, it requires the hammer to be in the cocked position putting the springs under tension rather than at rest.

Yes we've always kept our long guns that way regardless if it's an AR or shotty. We train our members that way from day one and it's not an issue. It takes really no longer to get the long gun into play since you disengage the safety as you're acquiring the target. Also it has no wear effect on the springs that we can see.

I worked Google on this topic and most of what came back on cruiser safe showed that a lot of departments keep long guns stored like we do. I even found a lesson plan from the Arizona Department of Public Safety that teaches shotgun cruiser safe with the safety on.
Look at page 5

The main reason to teach using the safety for this method of storage is that you cannot go wrong.

[TCinVA]

I think the safety thing here boils down to risk analysis.

If I feel that I'm in a position where I must chamber a round and get the weapon into action with such speed that the extra .10 of a second it may take to disengage the safety can mean the difference between dying screaming or surviving, I'll leave the safety off. One can speculate as to the likelihood of that scenario, however.

If, on the other hand, I'm sufficiently well trained on the weapon that I've learned to operate the safety reflexively as a part of presenting the weapon on a threat, (which is where everyone using a carbine should be) then I gain nothing by having the safety off. I leave the safety on, however, I gain an extra measure of protection against the innumerable host of things that can go hideously wrong when I'm using a firearm under real stress.

[David Armstrong]

Pistols stay in holsters with their triggers covered and not acessible. Rifles are out free floating around the galaxy where things can hit their triggers.

Pistols get taken out of their holsters just like rifles get taken out of their carriers. If they are both being carried, should the method of carry be the same or different?

Im not saying it would be problematic to flick it on. I am saying people FORGET too. Which is why I stated my observations about guys and hot weapons.

So then a good reason to leave it off safe would be that people would FORGET to take it off safe when they needed to use it, as I follow your reasoning.

As an example of the keeping things the same throughout systems; Just because you run an AK one way does not mean you should force yourself to run an AR the same way just to keep things the same. You end up killing efficiencey by trying to be efficient.

And if you develop commonality across the platforms where possible you improve efficiency.

Look, I'm not saying my way is right and the other is wrong. I'm pointing out there is a school of thought, fairly well established, that suggests an alternative method and has reasons for it. Whatever works good for you in your situation may not be so good for someone else in another situation.

[David Armstrong]

The main reason to teach using the safety for this method of storage is that you cannot go wrong.

We will apparently have to agree to disagree, particularly as it relates to the shotgun. FWIW, I'll see your AZ DPS and raise one U.S. Border Patrol (safety off)!

[David Armstrong]

Which pistols are being carried loaded with the safety off?

Safety off carry has become the preferred method for DAO or DA/SA autoloaders for many agencies and people.

[vmi-mo]

Pistols get taken out of their holsters just like rifles get taken out of their carriers. If they are both being carried, should the method of carry be the same or different? .

We operate in different environments. Rifles are always out, pistols are in holsters.

So then a good reason to leave it off safe would be that people would FORGET to take it off safe when they needed to use it, as I follow your reasoning..

I have yet to see a person on an AR platform, who is familiar with the system, not take the saftey off when firing. I have seen very proficient people forget to put the saftey on.

Whatever works good for you in your situation may not be so good for someone else in another situation.

Agree, however I feel there should be some universal "guidelines"


PJ

[GLOCKMASTER]

Never mind I don't think it's worth it as I feel like I have wasted too much time with this already.

[jar]

Agree, however I feel there should be some universal "guidelines

There are, we just don't agree on what they are.

There are valid reasons for both. For me it's a wash on the AR platform. On a pump shotgun, I prefer hammer down, safety off. I don't want to have to hit the fiddly little action release to be able to cycle it.

[David Armstrong]

Agree, however I feel there should be some universal "guidelines"

Agreed, which is where commonality rules the roost, IMO. For example, most any pump shotgun works the same as most any other pump shotgun with chamber empty safety off. With safety on, however, you now have to figure out where the action release is and how to release it and where the safety is. Safety off gives a universal "this is how you get it into action" response.

I have yet to see a person on an AR platform, who is familiar with the system, not take the saftey off when firing. I have seen very proficient people forget to put the saftey on.

Whereas I have seen a number of folks with just about every platform forget to take the safety off under stress.

We operate in different environments. Rifles are always out, pistols are in holsters.

Which is my point. Platform specific within environment specific doen't mean "good across the board." But you seem to keep avoiding the question. Pistols are taken out of their holsters. Should we have a different method of carrying them once they are out of the holster? The pistol is usually carried with the safety off. Why is that good for the pistol but a fatal flaw with the long gun?

[vmi-mo]

Whereas I have seen a number of folks with just about every platform forget to take the safety off under stress.

IMHO If I have guys who cannot work the safety, I am gonna spend alot of time with that shooter so they know how to work it. This is a trianing issue, not a hardware issue.

Also, if a shooter cannot be relied on to take the weapon off safe, how do you expect them to put in on safe?

Which is my point. Platform specific within environment specific doen't mean "good across the board." But you seem to keep avoiding the question. Pistols are taken out of their holsters. Should we have a different method of carrying them once they are out of the holster? The pistol is usually carried with the safety off. Why is that good for the pistol but a fatal flaw with the long gun?

My pistol is in a holster. Its firing mechanism is protected from outside influences. It only gets taken out when my primary goes down and there is someone deserving who needs to get it. When I am finished with it, it goes back into a holster.

My rifle is slung across the front of me all the time. It is banged off my kit, walls, the ground, internal structure etc. There are alot of things that can get at the trigger of my rifle. My rifle stays on safe until I have sights on a target.

Once again, we operate in different environments. YMMV

Another example, when I sleep with my rifle in cond 3, and we might get hit in the middle of the night (only happened in training) I still leave the safety on.


PJ