Assorted facts that beginners should know...

[beltjones]

SIG: #3 with most ammo. Lower with 115gr.

Great thread!

Well, to be fair, the same ammo in the same gun using the same sights could have two different POIs in the hands of two different shooters.

Rather than trying to find or compile a "master" list of all the POA/POIs, develop your own data with your own gun and your own ammo - and with you as the shooter at different target distances.

Knowing where your rounds impact at 5, 10, 15, 25, and 50 yards is critical information for any shooter to have.

[DonovanM]

Well, to be fair, the same ammo in the same gun using the same sights could have two different POIs in the hands of two different shooters.

Rather than trying to find or compile a "master" list of all the POA/POIs, develop your own data with your own gun and your own ammo - and with you as the shooter at different target distances.

Knowing where your rounds impact at 5, 10, 15, 25, and 50 yards is critical information for any shooter to have.

The consensus on SIGforum when someone asks why they're shooting low (thinking to use a #2 hold) is always that you're supposed to aim by driving the dot. As far as I know, the gun was designed to shoot that way, and it would have that POI out of a machine rest. I've had friends shoot my pistols with the same results I've had.

You are correct, in that it would of course be foolish to say that it would be the same for each and every shooter. But I think anyone who is looking critically at the master list should understand that it's only a starting point, and to dope out how they shoot their own pistols their own way. It's good knowledge to have to know where the manufacturer intends the POI to be, if only to save a little ammo doping that out for yourself.

(BTW, how's your injury? You've foolishly allowed me to almost catch up with you in terms of classification. You better not let me beat you to Master!)

[beltjones]

The consensus on SIGforum when someone asks why they're shooting low (thinking to use a #2 hold) is always that you're supposed to aim by driving the dot. As far as I know, the gun was designed to shoot that way, and it would have that POI out of a machine rest. I've had friends shoot my pistols with the same results I've had.

You are correct, in that it would of course be foolish to say that it would be the same for each and every shooter. But I think anyone who is looking critically at the master list should understand that it's only a starting point, and to dope out how they shoot their own pistols their own way. It's good knowledge to have to know where the manufacturer intends the POI to be, if only to save a little ammo doping that out for yourself.

(BTW, how's your injury? You've foolishly allowed me to almost catch up with you in terms of classification. You better not let me beat you to Master!)

You're absolutely right. My post wasn't directed at you, it was meant as a fact for beginners.

I was just saying that instead of trying to find some list, people should go shoot their own guns and find out where they impact.

The wrist is sore. I shot the Texas Limited Championship last weekend, and did ok, but I'm paying for it now. I have another appointment with a new orthopedist next Friday. I'm hoping for some shred of good news.

[jslaker]

Chamber checks are free - so there's no reason you shouldn't perform one every time you pick up a gun.

Now, you'll often hear this advice in relation to verifying that the gun is unloaded during handling -- and that's important! -- but many people overlook that it is equally important to verify the state of a weapon that you presume to be loaded.

One of the single scariest experiences I've had since I started carrying was checking my gun one day, discovering an empty chamber, and realizing that I'd been carrying an empty gun around for the better part of a week because I'd forgotten to chamber a round of defensive ammunition at the end of my last range session. If I'd needed that gun during that time frame, there's a good chance I'd have been royally screwed.

I have not put a gun on my belt without visually verifying that it is loaded since.

[Pistol Shooter]

Chamber checks are free - so there's no reason you shouldn't perform one every time you pick up a gun.

Now, you'll often hear this advice in relation to verifying that the gun is unloaded during handling -- and that's important! -- but many people overlook that it is equally important to verify the state of a weapon that you presume to be loaded.

One of the single scariest experiences I've had since I started carrying was checking my gun one day, discovering an empty chamber, and realizing that I'd been carrying an empty gun around for the better part of a week because I'd forgotten to chamber a round of defensive ammunition at the end of my last range session. If I'd needed that gun during that time frame, there's a good chance I'd have been royally screwed.

I have not put a gun on my belt without visually verifying that it is loaded since.

Very good point.

Not only good information for beginners but something we all might need to be reminded of.

[David Armstrong]

In most things related to firearms there is no such thing as "best", only different. There is no best gun, best caliber, best holster, best bullet, and so on. Find good quality gear that you like and learn to use it.

[ford.304]

And the corollary to this, in my opinion, is that you should not agonize over your "first" gun. Read enough advice to know which guns don't suck, then buy the cheapest one and spend the rest of your money on training and practice. If you don't practice, it doesn't really matter what gun you picked. If you do practice, a year later you can sell the gun if you decide you don't like it, and you'll have a much, much better idea of what you actually want in a firearm.

[Packy]

Don't shoot alone.
Shoot with friends who are better than you are so that you will learn faster.

[TCinVA]

A lot of great input so far...thank you. Some of it has gone in directions I didn't originally anticipate, but that's a good thing. Keep the suggestions coming. Ultimately my goal is to try and organize the input into a topic in the reference forum that can be linked to more in depth discussions of the particular topics if folks want to dig into the details more.

Don't shoot alone.
Shoot with friends who are better than you are so that you will learn faster.

I'll modify that slightly...friends that are better than you is certainly an excellent option, as being pushed by greater levels of skill in a partner has enormous benefits. That's one reason why the Virginia crew tends to miss no opportunity to get together on the range and shoot. Anyone can win practically any drill or contest we come up with and that has a way of making everyone perform at their best or bite it really hard but with an understanding of what went wrong and how to fix it. If you don't understand what you did wrong or how to fix it, one of the other guys on the range probably does. Yes, the fact that there's a professional firearms instructor in the mix doesn't hurt with that, but the other guys are pretty talented at diagnosis and critically breaking down what's happening as well.

At a minimum, though, it's important to partner up with someone who takes work on the range at least as seriously as you do. If your goal is improving skill then you'll show up with the firearm you are trying to learn and with a plan of what specific skillsets you are going to work on. You may bring along a backup gun or another similar weapon with a conversion kit for cheap practice. If your "partner" shows up with 19 guns and wants to function check this, or zero the scope on that, etc...then he's not there to train and he's actually a hindrance.

If that's your situation, shooting alone is far better. If you can't find a real training partner then work alone as seriously as you can, but never miss an opportunity to get on the range with people who are better than you so you can learn from them.

[Joe in PNG]

Don't get hung up on "Stopping Power" and the idea you have to get a .45acp over a 9mm, or a magnum over a .38spec. The heavier calibers are more expenisive to buy, harder to shoot, and don't deliver much advantage anyway.