untrainable

[1Rangemaster]

He is a citizen wanting to learn to use a gun

one thing I do when gauging a student is what i call the plate drill. I have them shoot 5 rounds at 5 yards into a paper plate, then we go to 6 rounds at 6 yard ect.
his last outing he was able to do 7 rounds at 7 yards.
I guess he has improved but at a snails pace.

I haven't given up on him yet..

@cracker: good to read that he has not given up and neither have you. Your last post caused me to think, what are the objectives he and you are trying to achieve. Frankly, for a citizen in a self defense context, 7 rounds into a 7 inch circle at 7 yards is pretty good from one perspective. There are more than a few people who can't do that. They are gun owners but not shooters as we might think; a lot of citizens are "ballistic masturbators" so to speak.
FWIW, I'd have a sit down with the student and lay out some objectives to accomplish, for example:
1) safe handling with the weapon of his choice
2)Figure out what a few of his expectations are, and are they realistic given what time and treasure expended. Does he want to carry concealed, or is he just interested in defending his home? Going through safe storage and accessing the weapon would be indicated if the latter.
Claude Werner, whose thinking and work are pretty respected, has an objective with brand new operators of 1 round on a sheet of paper at 4 yards from a ready position. He came to that conclusion after studying hundreds is self defense situations. A friend and I volunteer at our rural gun club to teach safety and practical shooting-"defensive" in others words. We use the Gila Hayes test: 5 shots on a 5 inch target at 5 yards within 5 seconds from the ready. Just about all operators who come to us can't do that in the first session. After a few more hours over a couple of sessions, about 60% can achieve it.
To conclude for now, find out what he really wants to achieve, and work with that. It sounds like you two have some good progress already. Best of luck to you both.

[Stephanie B]

But if you compare him to what you see at a public range he isn't doing that poorly.

I will second that sentiment.

[DMF13]

If you judge him by by Pistol Forum standards, he is not doing well. But if you compare him to what you see at a public range he isn't doing that poorly

Your comment made me think of this:

https://www.policemag.com/training/a...is-good-enough
(See article for the referenced photo)

"During presentations, Dawn Davis uses the above image to illustrate that a student’s shot placements are “good enough” when they land in the A and B zones of the target. An instructor should see this as a success and later can coach the shooter on moving the groupings toward the center of the target.During presentations, Dawn Davis uses the above image to illustrate that a student’s shot placements are “good enough” when they land in the A and B zones of the target. An instructor should see this as a success and later can coach the shooter on moving the groupings toward the center of the target"

[cracker]

Just wanted to do a follow up on this shooter. The man I am talking about is a snow bird and is gone for the winter, last summer he did not shoot at all. I joked with him if his gun still worked which he answered I don't know.
Yesterday we went to the range and he was eager to shoot his sig 226. I told him to put it away and had him shoot a walther p22 for 100 rounds , it took awhile but he was shooting some pretty nice groups towards the end. He then picked up his sig and commented how heavy it is, so I had him shoot my cz PCR and he was shooting as good as he was with the P22. After 20 rounds or so he went to his gun and did just as good. we were shooting at 20 feet and most rounds were landing in the flat of a paper plate with almost all on the plate.
He has some issues with his eyes and his hands, but I believe we have worked thru those as good as we can. I do however think we need to go gun shopping and get him something different than a decocker. He bought this when the guns stores were bare and he didn't have much of a choice, the clerk told him it was what the Navy Seals use and he was sold.
I believe I was happier with his shooting than he was..

[JTMcC]

I am working with my son, who has Coffin-Siris syndrome. He does okay with a rifle on a bench rest, but is having a terrible time with a pistol. I have tried both a Browning Buck Mark with iron sights and a Glock 44 with a Nelson Precision slide and a Swampfox Liberty optic. At some point I may try a .22 with a better trigger plus optic to further isolate skills, so that one skill can be developed at a time. Then I can progress to iron sights or more difficult triggers.

For most new shooters, I can draw a picture of a sight picture, and they understand. For my son, I made cardboard cutouts of a front and rear sight to show him the alignment. I specifically show him how the front cutout matches the front sight, and the rear cutout matches the rear sight. Understanding the student’s visualization limits and working within them is critical.

He started playing special needs hockey this year. Last year he could not ice skate. Teaching him how to skate involved making sure he had really good, properly fitted skates, as well as taking him on the ice until he got it. He was really motivated, and that helped a great deal. Some of the lessons in teaching skating are similar to teaching shooting.

Special needs people tend to get very strong ideas about how things should be. For both activities, I have to strike a balance between teaching him the best way and working with what he is comfortable with. His technique might not be the best, but if certain specifics are not hindering him too much, keeping him within his comfort zone in one area helps him progress in another. He currently states with his feet wide apart, but he is progressing to faster speeds that way. Someday, if an employer is willing to spend the time, his strong ideas about how things should be will motivate him to make sure they are exactly how his employer wants them.

A SIRT pistol is a really good tool for isolating skills, and can sometimes be used to diagnose problems which are not readily apparent during live fire.

I will agree with the above post that “get a scattergun” reflects fundamental misunderstandings about what shotguns are and are not capable of doing. Shot from a cylinder choke will spread about 1 inch for every yard from the barrel. They must be aimed just like a rifle, and marksmanship remains equally critical.

A flinch tells me that the shooter described in the original post is shooting something with too much recoil for his skill level. Start with a .22 and work up gradually from there.

Keep hanging in there Dad, you're doing good work

[JTMcC]

My experience with the "untrainables" in general has nothing to do with poor training techniques, eye sight, lack of hearing protection, eye dominance, gun size, caliber, blah,blah,blah. These can be overcome.
Those that seemed untrainable turned out to be in class because someone close to them thought they should take the class with, or without, them and they didn't want to say no.
They had no interest in being there and attempted, poorly, to go through the motions.
At some point prior to total frustration they were asked if they really wanted to do this and their reply was always no.
At that point it was "hey, this just isn't for you and that's ok."
Trying to force a student to get better at something that they don't want to do won't make them better at it. Or like it.
Some folks take longer to "get it" and some may require different training approaches but for any of that to be effective the student has to want it.

100% agree.

Take (as a worst case starting point) a small woman, no previous gun experience, relatively weak with small hands.
When that woman decides (in her own mind not as a job requirement) that she NEEDS to be able to fire effective shots with a gun (and it can be a 454 Casull, a 458 Lott, a 9mm, a 380 or a 22LR, does not matter), that human will develop the needed skills (not master class, but workmanlike).

I've known 16 year old petite girls who shoot the really big boomer handguns competently at large animals, because the drive to do so came from inside. Young Mothers with realistic concerns about their kids? They will gain that workmanlike ability.

Motivation is 100% internal. We can "rah rah" people into enthusiasm, but only for short periods of time. Strong internal motivation drives humans to do things.

Looks like you're making progress OP. I wish you continued success.

[cracker]

100% agree.

Motivation is 100% internal. We can "rah rah" people into enthusiasm, but only for short periods of time. Strong internal motivation drives humans to do things.

Looks like you're making progress OP. I wish you continued success.

And I thank you JTMcC, I believe it all clicked when I said shoot faster you need to speed it up, every 5 round mag I said I wanted him to go faster. After watching him put 5 rounds on the paper plate at a pretty quick pace he looked at the target and said wow i didn't even know if I was hitting the target (he was), I just trusted my sights. I told him that was the purpose of the track your sights drill I had him doing and that's what front sight focus is all about. At the end of the session I had him try some Target focus but it didn't go to well. I had him finish the day with some more front sight focus and he was doing well. I wanted to make sure he finished on a positive note.
I am hoping this helps motivate him but it seems I was happier with his shooting than he was.

[JTMcC]

Well good for both of you

We slaughter paper plates at an alarming rate. Paper plates designate (hi speed) hit zones in everything from elk, mule deer, antelope and evil humans. It's a great time/range/skill classifier.

They are no go for prairie dogs tho (skunks at short range with shotguns=good, a little farther out coyotes=good).

At my little back yard range, you best be hitting that paper plate quickly or you're getting derision.

Can't imagine the frustration that comes with teaching non motivated shooters ie just part of my job etc. Many people have worked their way thru our range but they have all been driven by a perceived "need" to make solid hits whether it's varmints, predators, big game, stupid ex husbands or other. That's an "easy button" right there, they put in the work.

Old style wood clothes pins attached to either wood or steel "drive in the ground" stakes make very movable, usable paper plate holders.