Probably so.Originally Posted by HCM
I personally would be ok with just the normal M&P or Equalizer trigger. Still, you would have platform that was cheaper and more reliable, while offering a similar, but overall better, safety setup. If you really wanted to get crazy, you could do the APEX treatment to the gun. Again, basically a full sized Equalizer.
However, this is why I post on internet forums and do not design guns. The whole making money thing is where I wouldn't do so well.
This is a classic internet gun forum “jump to conclusions” thread full of speculations, nonsense, and other pixie dust if I have ever seen one.
My area has dozens of departments that allow 2011’s, specifically Staccatos, to be carried on duty, and am generally “in the loop” and have heard nothing of departments de-certifying or forbidding the carry of these guns. Zilch.
That’s not saying USMS SOG or some other department somewhere decided to say “No Staccato,” but I would hardly say there has been some APB put out to everyone saying “STOP.!” …or even a slight blip of such activity.
There are two issues to unpack here:
Issue 1: The Gun
It could be because I work in an area where the 1911 has been carried in law enforcement off and on for decades, but there is nothing inherently unsafe about a properly maintained non-Series 80 1911 platform gun.
The “drop safe” issue in 1911 have nothing to do with the sear, hammer, trigger or other components of the trigger group. A gun that has been messed with can have hammer follow caused by the sear spring or have an improperly fit sear to hammer interface that can cause problems, but those are separate issues.
It has everything to do with a worn out firing pin spring allowing the firing pin to slam forward when the gun is dropped on the muzzle or general muzzle area of the gun. Period. End of story.
The only 1911 platform gun that really prevents this is a decent fashion is the Colt Series 80. Notice I said Colt? That is because the Series 80 is a Colt patent unique to Colt and only Colt. No other factory pistol uses it.
The Swartz safety (designed by William Swartz, a Colt employee, and ultimately rejected by Colt), was used in the Kimber Series II pistols and early S&W 1911’s. It’s a known problematic system, but is meant to do the same thing as the Series 80…prevent a worn out firing pin spring from letting the firing pin travel forward when the gun is dropped.
So outside Colt Series 80 guns, Kimber Series II, and a handful of S&W guns, everything else has what you guys are incorrectly referring to as Series 70, or basically the classic 1911 design that lacks a firing pin safety and relies on spring to keep it drop safe.
Springfield Armory, Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, most Colts, and literally every one of the millions of GI guns produced all operate on the same system. In the century that the design has been in service how many times have you heard of a 1911 falling on its muzzle and discharging? Especially in LE use? I’m guessing not many. That’s because if the gun is properly maintained its not an issue.
The gun is designed to have the firing pin spring changed frequently. On a non-Series 80 gun it’s super simple to do and requires about 5 seconds of your time. That’s why Wolff Springs and some other manufacturers include a firing pin spring with every recoil spring. In a duty 45 ACP gun, change each about every 2,500 rounds and you’re golden.
The Staccato pistols are no different. We have the exact same proven system that has been in use for over 100 years with very little issue. What may be different are non-1911 folk who just discovered the platform shooting lots of rounds (or conducing torture tests) without taking the 5 seconds to change the firing pin spring when they should.
If you shoot 10k rounds through a Staccato P and never change the firing pin spring may it possibly be weak enough to not be drop safe? Perhaps. Should you change the damn 30 cent spring at regular intervals as good insurance? You bet.
Is the pistol inherently unsafe in any way by its design? NO!
Issue 2: Department Dynamics
The 1911 has always been a niche pistol in LE limited to cowboys, SWAT teams, cool gun guys, hipsters, nerds, and in geographic regions where they are deemed normal/acceptable (I’m lucky to live and work in one).
The phenomenon of the rise of the Staccato and 2011 in general in the last four years has been an interesting one to watch. Departments that never understood or allowed the 1911 suddenly started allowing the Staccato 2011 because of training groups, the internet, and someone else told them it was a good idea, was cutting edge, or may increase chances of recruitment (no joke I’ve heard all of these).
So now you have a bunch of guys using what is basically a 1911 pattern pistol who have never used them before. This group of dudes is used to pistols like Glocks, which as Ken Hackathorn would say, “Are for guys used to treating their guns like their lawnmower.”
I’ve heard Bill Go (look him up if you don’t know who is) say that Glocks are for guys that want a Toyota Camry and 1911’s are for guys that want a ’55 Chevrolet Bel Air. They both perform really well, but one looks cooler and requires a lot more maintenance. Touché.
Are our new found 1911/2011 LE carriers familiar with the platform and the maintenance required? Do they have the support system to make it happen? Or are they treating them like lawnmowers?
USMS SOG had been carrying Springfield Pro’s in the past, then went Glock, then Staccato. There are no differences in the safety system at all between the Springfield Pro and the Staccato. They’re basically identical. Are there supervisory or internal politics at play with the Staccato if they put a pause on them? Maybe.
For years I’ve seen departments allow 1911’s, get a new chief and forbid 1911’s (those guns have hair triggers and are unsafe!), then get another chief and allow 1911’s again.
I’ve also seen police administrations become convinced that everyone must carry the same gun because of uniformity or some stupid reason like they think cops are going to tossing magazines back and forth in a gun fight.
I’ve also seen departments ban rifles and slugs because of “over penetration” concerns. One state highway patrol issued frangible rifle ammunition for its AR’s for fighting around automobiles where the ammo would struggle to penetrate auto glass. It took a freeway shooting where they fired dozens of rifle rounds and couldn’t get it to penetrate the car (a shotgun saved the day) before common sense prevailed. Hell, I think most of us know of one large .gov agency decided 357 SIG is the best round for shooting inside of airplanes at 30,000 feet.
This is only dealing with gun stuff. I’ve seen departments “torture test,” purchase, issue and then ban a piece of equipment all within the course of a month. Some departments continue to ban the Taser, which has proven to be an extremely effective and almost universally adopted less lethal tool.
My point is that what police departments do doesn’t equate to rational thinking, common sense, or in this case a problem with gun.
Where does that leave us?
The Staccato isn’t getting shunned by LE and is no more or less safe than the vast majority of every other 1911/2011 out there.
I don’t think I would use that argument. I have seen many, many, many Glock failures at matches. I’ve also seen many 2011s run super reliably, including several I own. Typically, if I had to guess which shooter/gun combo would fail it a match, my first question would not be which gun is being used, but who is using it, and more importantly, maintaining it.
Also, fun fact, I’ve seen case failures with 40s at matches with both Glocks and 2011s. With each instance the Glock was dead on arrival, whereas the 2011 was back in business with a quick cleaning.
For the record, I am in no way arguing a 2011 is a better duty pistol than a Glock. Especially as a general issue.
@KevH
You make some excellent points. Thanks for the post.
I think a lot of people use "Series 70" as term of convivence, and I think most people understand what it means. Even if they don't know the full context of its origin or its proper technical use.
While based on the evidence I have reviewed, a 1911 without a FPS is not as drop safe as most modern guns (insert P320 joke here). However, they are not as unsafe as many guns of the past, and I wouldn't freak out if I had to carry one. Since there are other options out there, *I* choose to avoid them. The reward is just not worth the risk for me. I get why others see things differently.
Without question, I would take a 1911 without a FPS over a P320 or Walther with no manual safety.
Speaking of the series 80 only being in Colts. Do companies like Taurus and Auto Ordnance use something similar to the Series 80 system, or has the patent expired?
There is a reason I underlined the word properly.
There are a lot of junk. 1911 trigger jobs out there. I’ve seen many. Heck, I have had gunsmith deliver such.
Aren’t SIG 1911s “Series 80”?
"When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man."
S&W 1911's never used the Swartz firing pin safety.
S&W used the Mochak firing pin safety in their 1911's which was designed by S&W engineer Richard Mochak. However, the Mochak firing pin safety does operate off the grip safety like the Swartz system.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6374526B1/en
I'm fairly certain the patent is long expired. Taurus and Para Ordnance both used their own version of the system. I just had to look up what Auto Ordnance is doing these days and it looks like they are using some variation of it. Just remember the term "Series 80" has come to mean has a firing pin safety actuated off the trigger in the same way "Series 70" means it does not have a firing pin safety. The Swartz system is actuated off the grip safety and creates timing nightmares.
The Series 80 system can have an either acceptable or crappy trigger pull from the factory. The old trick to get a good trigger job with one was to use the safety flag from a Colt Gold Cup. I have a couple setup that way and they're triggers are quite nice. I have not idea if that is possible with the copycats of the system.
If you have an aversion to the classic 1911 system then it's your choice not to carry one. Personally owning a safe full of 1911's and having carried and worked on them for years I have absolutely no qualms about the system and consider it no less safe than any other pistol when it is maintained properly.
One incident in recent memory where an officer was killed after dropping his pistol was here in 2002: https://www.odmp.org/officer/16325-o...enneth-paderez
In this case it was a SIG P220 that landed on the hammer. It was an older P220 with the spur hammer, but was equipped with a firing pin safety. Just because a gun has a FPS doesn't mean if maintenance has been neglected and it's your time to die bad things won't happen. A properly maintained 1911/2011 dropped in the same fashion wouldn't have gone off. Just sayin.
I owned a Staccato P, sold it, and now have a Staccato C2 en route (the P was just too bulky for what I need). We have about a dozen Staccato's in use at my department right now and I think they're a great pistol for the money. One guy at my department carried a 5" 45 ACP STI 2011 on-duty for a decade or so up until 2018, switched to a 5" 9mm STI, then to a Staccato P, and now has the P and a CS. He and I have gone to a whole bunch of classes together and between his guns I'm sure he's well over the 50,000 round mark with very little issues.
Some were, fudged to work with their external extractor.
Taurus does or did. I think Para Ordnance. Patents aren’t permanent.
Code Name: JET STREAM
That's a really good point. People fiddle-fuck with competition guns and nearly everything is subject to reliability concerns once it gets into the competition circuit.
Exactly why I'm more concerned about reliability reports from departmental use of guns like the MPX, instead of competitions.
There's the old joke about how if you locked a marine in a room with a bowling ball, it will either be broken or become pregnant. There's probably a similar joke to be made about competition shooters and the reliability of a given tool. It's a tinkering crowd.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
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