PSTG podcast interview of Tier1 guy about pistol/rifle training

[breakingtime91]

Here is what I found in Howe's " The CSAT Way" book:

We always did hands, waist, face. Hands were immediate threat (gun, knife, clacker to set off s vest), waist for s-vest concealed rifle or pistol, and face for signs of aggression or anxiety. Worked well.

We also focused on high A zone hits (think Kyle defoor reduced A zone) and we extended the credit card zone for the head up and included a box for the nose. Nose and most of the forehead worked for immediate incapacitating a target, nose was like a light switch, upper a zone seemed to be the only thing worth hitting other than that. Turn off the computer or spring so many leaks in the pump that blood pressure drops and they stop doing what they were doing. Had a buddy who swore by shooting moving targets in the hip to get them to slow/drop so you could attack the pump. Worked.

[Gadfly]

Depends.

Our agency they got between 1500 and 2500 last time so checked - @Gadfly has more recent info.

One advantage for us and most other FLETC programs is frequency- our new folks alternate firearms and Defensive tactics in the sane time slot daily through out the course of their training rather than doing a 2 or 3 week block of 8 hour days on the range.

FBI supposedly get 3,000 or more ?

They have switched up the basic academy shooting program. Shotgun and Rifle have been pulled completely as of about September of last year. Shotguns are out of inventory. The agency maintains enough rifles for about one in four agents to be issued one. So the "logic" was that only a quarter of our agents will ever carry a rifle, so with are the other 75% wasting time on rifle drills? "Lets just make everyone shoot more handguns." Which we did.

We have the same 80 hours, but we don't have to spend as much time covering admin aspects of the shotgun and rifle, so those hours can be spent pulling triggers on the pistols.

I would say they are closer to 2500-3000 rounds per student, during the academy.

24 per class, and not uncommon to cover 4000-6000 rounds per class per day. Which is 200-250 rounds per student per range time. Some days more, some less. Class is either a 2 or 4 hour block. If your class lost a student or two due to medical, failed standards, or drop out, we still pull the same amount of ammo for a full class. Each student can just shoot more rounds that day if they lost a few class mates.


As always, it boils down to how much the instructor wants to talk/demo, how fast the students can grasp a concept before we move on to the next skill, etc. But there are a ton of rounds going down range in HSI-SAT. and that is not counting the rounds fired in CITP (criminal investigator training program) that is a pre-requisite to HSI-SAT basic.

[HCM]

They have switched up the basic academy shooting program. Shotgun and Rifle have been pulled completely as of about September of last year. Shotguns are out of inventory. The agency maintains enough rifles for about one in four agents to be issued one. So the "logic" was that only a quarter of our agents will ever carry a rifle, so with are the other 75% wasting time on rifle drills? "Lets just make everyone shoot more handguns." Which we did.

We have the same 80 hours, but we don't have to spend as much time covering admin aspects of the shotgun and rifle, so those hours can be spent pulling triggers on the pistols.

I would say they are closer to 2500-3000 rounds per student, during the academy.

24 per class, and not uncommon to cover 4000-6000 rounds per class per day. Which is 200-250 rounds per student per range time. Some days more, some less. Class is either a 2 or 4 hour block. If your class lost a student or two due to medical, failed standards, or drop out, we still pull the same amount of ammo for a full class. Each student can just shoot more rounds that day if they lost a few class mates.


As always, it boils down to how much the instructor wants to talk/demo, how fast the students can grasp a concept before we move on to the next skill, etc. But there are a ton of rounds going down range in HSI-SAT. and that is not counting the rounds fired in CITP (criminal investigator training program) that is a pre-requisite to HSI-SAT basic.

How much did y’all have undo things taught by FLETC and “re-program?”

As I recall CITP is about 1500 rounds.

[awp_101]

Since we’re getting into the weeds - Hands - then waist. Not hands and waist - the hands are what kills you and are therefore a higher priority.

I was grouping them together under the banner of looking for the same or similar things, not necessarily because one should be scanning them together. But the clarification is appreciated!

[Gadfly]

How much did y’all have undo things taught by FLETC and “re-program?”

As I recall CITP is about 1500 rounds.

Well, Fletc did not have an RDS program in place. Their instructors were not certified to instruct them at all. The FLETC solution?? Pull the battery from HSI's RDS, and make them shoot all Iorns for CITP. Which is kind of good, in that it is far more iron sight practice than we will give.

Once a few FLETC CITP guys became RDS instructor certified, the complaint was "its not fair that HSI has RDS and the other CITP students don't". So they should not get to win "Top Gun" trophies.... because HSI won them ALL since the red dot was introduced. We call at a clue FLETC. USMS, FBI and a few other agencies are writing policy and requesting budgets to issue RDS in their own basic academies. I expect the other agencies to go live with it in the next 1-3 years.

[jlw]

Well, Fletc did not have an RDS program in place. Their instructors were not certified to instruct them at all. The FLETC solution?? Pull the battery from HSI's RDS, and make them shoot all Iorns for CITP. Which is kind of good, in that it is far more iron sight practice than we will give.

Once a few FLETC CITP guys became RDS instructor certified, the complaint was "its not fair that HSI has RDS and the other CITP students don't". So they should not get to win "Top Gun" trophies.... because HSI won them ALL since the red dot was introduced. We call at a clue FLETC. USMS, FBI and a few other agencies are writing policy and requesting budgets to issue RDS in their own basic academies. I expect the other agencies to go live with it in the next 1-3 years.

I did the FLETC FITP program in 1/2020. We had to use irons on our rifles.

[HCM]

I did the FLETC FITP program in 1/2020. We had to use irons on our rifles.

FLETC Firearms programs are the proverbial “horse designed by committee” only the committee has 80 plus partner agencies which have to agree on everything.

As I recall there wasn’t much rifle in FITP but we also had to do irons only for most of the FLETC Patrol Rifle class back in ‘08.

[HCM]

They have switched up the basic academy shooting program. Shotgun and Rifle have been pulled completely as of about September of last year. Shotguns are out of inventory. The agency maintains enough rifles for about one in four agents to be issued one. So the "logic" was that only a quarter of our agents will ever carry a rifle, so with are the other 75% wasting time on rifle drills? "Lets just make everyone shoot more handguns." Which we did.

We have the same 80 hours, but we don't have to spend as much time covering admin aspects of the shotgun and rifle, so those hours can be spent pulling triggers on the pistols.

I would say they are closer to 2500-3000 rounds per student, during the academy.

24 per class, and not uncommon to cover 4000-6000 rounds per class per day. Which is 200-250 rounds per student per range time. Some days more, some less. Class is either a 2 or 4 hour block. If your class lost a student or two due to medical, failed standards, or drop out, we still pull the same amount of ammo for a full class. Each student can just shoot more rounds that day if they lost a few class mates.


As always, it boils down to how much the instructor wants to talk/demo, how fast the students can grasp a concept before we move on to the next skill, etc. But there are a ton of rounds going down range in HSI-SAT. and that is not counting the rounds fired in CITP (criminal investigator training program) that is a pre-requisite to HSI-SAT basic.

I think the advantages of starting new shooters on RDS outweigh the potential benefits of increased time with irons but it is what it is.

[JF1]

Here's of video of Paul Howe discussing target discrimination. Please delete if it's already been linked.

https://youtu.be/vGQJjtAM0u0

[rcbusmc24]

@1Rangemaster that’s the million dollar question.

But it’s probably a good idea to separate out what’s “best theoretical practice” versus what’s “necessary institutional lowest common denominator.”

There are in reality, probably (at least) three tiers of students.

1. Self motivated, self assessing.
2. Self motivated and not as adept at self assessing.
3. Not self motivated.


What works well for group 1 may be the gold standard but not realistic for group 2-3.

But similarly, group 3 curriculum might be inappropriate for group 1 students.

Despite a trainer’s best efforts, most paid high round count classes are probably populated with largely group 2 students with some group 1 and are likely more tailored to group 2 because of that.


Regarding hit factor scoring if I were to tailor it to self defense application for someone who was more type 2…

I would use:

Attachment 100918

And if using practiscore for calculating hit factor use major scoring as follows:

4” circle = 5 points
A zone = 4 points
C zone = 2 points
D zone = NPM (no penalty miss)
Miss = -10 points

That could cone down the shot spread if the student isn’t a type 1 that will keep training and know how to apply and scale the drills into application.

https://www.swatmag.com/article/defi...r-user-groups/

Justin Dyal (under the pen name Ethan Johns, as he was still still active duty at the time)wrote a article a few years back addressing this question pretty well I think....