Active Shooter Uvalde TX Elementary School

[HCM]

Pardon my French but what in the actual fuck?!. How is it possible for the local PD to not cooperate with DPS? I mean, how do they have a choice? @HCM?

That doesn’t stop the investigation, it just changes it’s nature. They Essentially chose to be subjects of the investigation instead of partners in the investigation.

It looks really bad but with the “Mexico light” culture of corruptions pervasive in rural South Texas anything is possible

[DDTSGM]

There aren't enough teachers who are willing to be trained to carry and many school district administrators don't think it's a good idea.

I don't recall if it's been mentioned before but even in cases where teachers and admin are on board, insurance companies get a vote. Shortly after Sandy Hook a local district announced plans to allow armed teachers. That was followed by another announcement that their insurance provider had told them no coverage if that happened.

[Borderland]

If a teacher doesn't want to carry - their choice. However, they should be given the choice.

As I said most CCW types don't carry and don't train. However, those who can and have trained have stepped up, so nothing is perfect solution.

How many CCW types have taken bleed out first aid courses? Go back to the 80's, did we have 40 states with shall issue systems? No, people learn. Maybe this sort of incident will get through to people.


You got a Plan B - I got it, let's confiscate all the guns in private hands.

However, they should be given the choice. I agree with this.

But if you polled the teachers in this state for carry in the classroom I think you would find it isn't popular. It isn't popular in TX either. Cruz is getting his ass kicked by TX teachers unions.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/0...texas-00035794

Granted, shall issue has taken hold in most states and constitutional carry is trending, but that isn't a defense for schools. Only about 7% of the general public here have a license to CC and most of them don't carry.

Plan B is more tax dollars for schools to increase security with trained armed security staff and locked down students. Kind of like a prison except they get to go home everyday if they're lucky.

[Spartan1980]

https://www.insider.com/uvalde-offic...-report-2022-5

That story is on multiple levels....just heartbreaking.

[TGS]

There aren't enough teachers who are willing to be trained to carry and many school district administrators don't think it's a good idea. I think we've already covered this ground. Where was Kathleen Parker after Sandy Hook? She's a few years younger than me and I'm surprised she thinks that's even an option if she's been paying attention.

Teachers and commercial airline pilots don't want to shoot it out with terrorists.

I don't recall if it's been mentioned before but even in cases where teachers and admin are on board, insurance companies get a vote. Shortly after Sandy Hook a local district announced plans to allow armed teachers. That was followed by another announcement that their insurance provider had told them no coverage if that happened.

So, this all goes back to my big point that as long as school administrators are involved in the solution then there will be no meaningful improvement. This has to be legislated by the states, and not on an "opt-in" basis.

As for airline pilots, I'm pretty sure people brought up these same points in opposition to the FFDO program....which from my tangential experience in meeting them while working, I can assure you is alive and well...so if you think nobody is participating in it, there's a decent chance you're in for a bad surprise when you try to pry open a cockpit door. Maybe it's just the routes I tend to fly, IDK. Anymore than that would be inappropriate to discuss, however.

The FFDO program serves as a near perfect model for school staff and faculty to be given an opportunity to defend their students.

1) It takes the employer out of the equation. Not only is it not an "opt-in" program on behalf of the employer, but the employer is legally obligated to allow the pilot time off to attend training. So, pilots are truly free to participate as they see fit. As it's not an opt-in program, it also doesn't impact any metrics that the school would have control over, such as insurance. Hasn't been a problem for the airlines, don't see how it would be a problem here.....all insurance companies aren't going to refuse to insure all schools in a state if they have a similar program go into place......someone is going to want to make that money, especially if the armed staff are operating under the authority of law enforcement in carrying the gun and have been through training that the societal leeches known as underwriters can word-smith into being acceptable.

2) The pilots are acting in the capacity of federal agents in carrying the gun. This means the employer bears no liability with regards to what happens regarding the gun.

3) The biggest limitation of the FFDO program being that they have to do it on their own time/dime, as it's an unpaid volunteer "position" with DHS, if you will. That makes it a PITA to participate, as they typically have to take personal time off, fly across the country for their initial training block and requalification sessions. That's simply the nature of it being a very tightly controlled program due to obvious sensitivity issues, and wouldn't apply to a state program run by your local city/county law enforcement agencies for teachers that usually have their weekends off to conduct requalification sessions as well as their summers open for initial training.


The biggest hurdle in this happening is people who say it can't happen, or continually misrepresent each individual proposed solution as a red herring and attack them for not being the singular end-all/be-all solution on their own, when in actuality the correct response here is a layered system that includes an FFDO-like program plus dedicated armed security and enhanced physical security measures. There's no good reason it can't happen. It's very realistic, it's very doable.

[Suvorov]

As for airline pilots, I'm pretty sure people brought up these same points in opposition to the FFDO program....which from my tangential experience in meeting them while working, I can assure you is alive and well...so if you think nobody is participating in it, there's a decent chance you're in for a bad surprise when you try to pry open a cockpit door. Maybe it's just the routes I tend to fly, IDK. Anymore than that would be inappropriate to discuss, however.

They absolutely did, and there was a fare amount of resistance from within the ranks of other pilots. Conde-nest ran a super ill-informed (well ill implies a certain degree of informed so I'll say UN-informed) hit piece on the program designed to freak the passenger crowd out, and the cries of "Barbarians" that came from the foreign pilots was almost comical.

Today most of the noise has quieted down, but you still hear a squak or two coming from the foreign pilots on the various chat boards.

On all points I agree 100% with what you have written. Getting the NEA to go along will be the challenge to get it done nationally as there is a pretty big difference in the makeup of ALPA members and NEA members.

Still, one can hope.

[Duelist]

However, they should be given the choice. I agree with this.

But if you polled the teachers in this state for carry in the classroom I think you would find it isn't popular. It isn't popular in TX either. Cruz is getting his ass kicked by TX teachers unions.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/0...texas-00035794

Granted, shall issue has taken hold in most states and constitutional carry is trending, but that isn't a defense for schools. Only about 7% of the general public here have a license to CC and most of them don't carry.

Plan B is more tax dollars for schools to increase security with trained armed security staff and locked down students. Kind of like a prison except they get to go home everyday if they're lucky.

Teacher’s unions legal and lobbying positions =/= polling opinions of teachers. Not to be a prick about it, but “I think” isn’t polling, either.

[Joe in PNG]

The enemy of the possible is the perfect. It's an old tactic to bring up every possible permutation of problems, add them all together, and present that as an argument against doing something.

Anyone with teenagers knows this tactic quite well. Or those dealing with entrenched bureaucracies.

[Tensaw]

Reading one of the local papers, I thought this was an interesting take. This police chief is in Hermiston, Oregon, which is pretty rural, (near the old Umatilla chemical weapons depot) but the town probably has a decent sized school district.

Hermiston Chief of Police Jason Edmiston said no one can know how individual officers will respond when their own lives are on the line, but he was adamant about his force's protocols and training for active shooter situations.

"The lesson Columbine taught us, now almost 25 years ago, was that you can't wait to form up a team to go in, much less for SWAT, which we don't even have in Eastern Oregon. Oregon State Police SWAT takes four or five hours to get to us."

All Hermiston police officers have a master key that opens all doors in all schools, Edmiston stated. (emphasis mine).

“Our officers arrive and go in,” he said. “It’s not practical to wait for a team to form to eliminate the threat. Create a distraction. Buy time for kids or customers to evacuate. Even if just one or two officers, we train to enter, find and engage the threat, while communicating with others.”

Edmiston said if reports of officers waiting an hour for a SWAT team prove true, it would be "a huge step back and a slap in the face. It's a black eye for all police sworn to serve and protect. The profession we've chosen means we're willing to risk a suicide mission to save lives, especially young lives. Time is life.”

https://www.eastoregonian.com/news/l...dbb2023b1.html

And here’s hoping that all of his officers are equipped with (at least) rifles.

[JHC]

The Texas "teacher marshall" program seems pretty well designed overall. Seems so to me. Here are a couple decent treatments of the topic. First one really highlights the necessity for Utopia because they are so small and so isolated.

https://www.rawstory.com/in-utopia-a...rs-carry-guns/

This one is a few years old after the program got up and running and the count at that time was 170 districts, about 14% of the total.

https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/a...rshal-program/

I think it can be a useful layer and I'd want it for my kids schools as a final line of defense but IMO the gun community is making a mistake to over emphasize it as the master key solution for all schools. That's unrealistic in the extreme I think. And the optics of that being the go to answer for everyone is not helpful. Teachers are in short supply and I'm confident many schools may have next to zero qualified candidates. A couple coaches on the other side of campus doesn't accomplish a ton.

The whole concept of "good guy with a gun" takes a heckuva hit when multiple good guys with guns and active shooter training fail hard but the teacher packing a subcompact pistol is gonna solve everything?