This is worth discussing. For several years, I've been using @Mr_White's drills as a test for self-defense applications. In particular, the concealed carry par times are the standards I'm using to compare my different carry guns and systems.
But what about pocket carry? IMO, the big advantage of pocket carry over a holster is being able to have my hand on the gun without it seeming unnatural. So that's where I'm starting from to compare to AIWB. Interestingly, my first shots from the pocket weren't much--if any--faster than from AIWB. Possibly due to the difficulty of forming a solid support hand grip on a mousegun.
It is interesting to consider how much of a handicap there is to start with hands out of pockets. It's at least 1-2 seconds for my pants pockets under ideal conditions. Not good... Did I recall that @BehindBlueI's had some data on this?
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
@Clusterfrack
I agree with the pocket advantages.
But IMO, the gun on grip is a neutral time draw like an open holster.
If you want to give BUG guns a specific handicap I think that’s fine.
But riddle me this for just the pocket mechanics.
If I had you start with your hand on your Production gun in a front sweatshirt pocket, what do you think the time delta would be from an open holster draw versus a concealed draw.
For me, hand on gun in pocket is about the same as open draw if you take the specific gun out of the equation.
The 0.25 time is to support hand clear a cover garment which isn’t the situation with a pocket draw.
What say you?
I'd rather have @Mr_White comment, but here are my thoughts:
I don't think the open and concealed times are directly comparable. Anyway, that question is more for bragging rights and awarding pins.
My goal was to directly compare performance of an AIWB draw to a hands-in-pocket mousegun draw, so that's why I calculated it the way I did.
Good questions about gun vs. draw type and position. Yes, my understanding is that clearing the garment represents 0.25s in the original design of the GW drills. However, with a decent AIWB draw I think it's a significant advantage for making the Turbo par times. The gun makes more of a difference than anything else--especially as the splits and transitions to the head add up.
I'm guessing I could shave 0.25s off a pocket draw by using a full-size gun (assuming it fit in a pocket without snagging), but also 0.05 to 0.10 on each split and transition. I was really surprised that the p380 wasn't even slower for good shots. This was the second time I've shot that gun, and only have ~100 rounds through it so I'm confident I can build skill with it. It's really great ergonomically for such a puny gun.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
@Clusterfrack
To be clear I think Gabe White standards from a pocket draw is very reasonable.
I just wouldn’t support giving it an additional time benefit.
If you gave everyone that option to start with hand on gun in pocket for 0.25 bonus instead of having to clear cover and draw IWB… I know I would certainly take that option over a conventional concealed holster for speed and reproducibility.
I don’t think any pocket correction factor is possible for hands outside pockets because pockets are so different.
I think that’s fair and understandable.
I think I would have just reported times and hits because pin level gets gamey when using non standard starts.
If that’s seen as equivalent, I would certainly exercise that option in any GW class I attended.
I normally carry a P365X and am confident I’d be faster and more consistent from hand on gun pocket draw than concealed AIWB so that’s where I’m coming from.
Just the mechanics and advantages.
Fair enough. For the gamers:
P380 pocket draw, hand on gun
Bill
2.31L
F2S
2.06+.25: 2.31 D
1.83L
2H
1.64T
1.75 +.25: 2.00T
4B2H
2.57T
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie