Does a short barrel .45 make sense

[Bucky]

Short barrel .45 still makes no sense. But this weekend, I am carrying one - my late father's gun. It's father's day tomorrow, the first one without my father, and I'm gonna carry his gun for that reason. It's loaded with 230-grain ball, because that's what it is reliable with. Doesn't make any sense and I don't care.

Attachment 55793

Do I tell him? I hate to ruin the sentiment.

[RevolverRob]

Do I tell him? I hate to ruin the sentiment.

Indeed, I have lost track of the dates apparently.

It's okay.

[SiriusBlunder]

<snip>

More talk about dispersion/key-holing and energy from service caliber handguns stopping attackers.

<snip>

You mentioned dispersion/key-holing in the 9mm fmj vs 45 fmj performance thread. The follies of those concepts were addressed there.

You again state "a .45 ACP don't rely on velocity as much as lighter bullets like 9mm to create the energy that's needed to stop an attacker".

Service caliber handguns do not have enough kinetic energy to create a temporary cavity large enough to contribute to wounding/incapacitation.

As suggested in that thread, we have learned a lot since 1986.

You could learn a lot by reading the stickies at the top of this forum, the 1989 paper "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, and all the IWBA Journals that are now online.

To quote from "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness":

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration.

[DocGKR]

What importance is ft/lbs "energy" to terminal performance and incapacitation potential???

You wouldn't want to keyhole an assailant even if you could because you'd greatly increase the chance of over penetration and thus wasting energy in the process.

Actually an upset round that hits sideways (ie. keyhole] is tyically LESS likely to penetrate as deeply as a result of increased drag and loss of stability.

In fact, .45 ACP may even be at a ballistic advantage coming from a shorter rather than a longer barrel because—all things being equal—a heavier bullet penetrates (and thus over penetrates) more than a lighter bullet.

Not with expanding projectiles fired in the appropriate velocity range.

"I've never seen a .357 leave the body and I've never seen a .44 Magnum stay in one"

Uh.... no. All depends on the specific projectile and tissue traversed.

[corneileous]

Well I went to the range Saturday and the new rounds shot really well. I don’t think I had anymore muzzle rise than with the regular pressure 230 grainers but the 185 +P Underwoods gave more of a rearward push than the others so I’m assuming these are just as good as any other.


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[5pins]

I just finished testing some WWB 230gr JHP in Vyse gel. Four rounds in a full size 1911, two through heavy clothing and two in bare gel. I also shot two rounds with a 3-inch Defender in bare gel. While two rounds in bare gel isn't a large sample size it performed better then I thought it would from a 3-inch barrel.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/0...allistics-gel/

I also did the same test with some Underwood 200gr +P bonded JHP (Gold Dot). In both Vyse organic gel as well as Clear gel.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/0...allistics-gel/

The extra velocity and recoil and the +P didn't seem to help at all and limited penetration.

[corneileous]

I just finished testing some WWB 230gr JHP in Vyse gel. Four rounds in a full size 1911, two through heavy clothing and two in bare gel. I also shot two rounds with a 3-inch Defender in bare gel. While two rounds in bare gel isn't a large sample size it performed better then I thought it would from a 3-inch barrel.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/0...allistics-gel/

I also did the same test with some Underwood 200gr +P bonded JHP (Gold Dot). In both Vyse organic gel as well as Clear gel.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/0...allistics-gel/

The extra velocity and recoil and the +P didn't seem to help at all and limited penetration.

Thank you for that. Really helpful information but in other words to what you’re saying, is that at least in this case having a lighter bullet that was even a plus P with more velocity from more powder, didn’t penetrate as well as even the standard pressure 230 grain bullets, correct? Makes sense to me. I know that the debate has been talked about a lot over some people saying that the heavier, slower round is better than the faster, lighter round and I know that it’s all about trying to find that happy medium there but for the case of the short barrel 45, that’s pretty interesting that your test results showed that the lighter-to-begin with and had more pressure pushing it, didn’t even penetrate like the plain old 230 grain bullet did.

I’m assuming I’m probably answering my own question but I guess it’s safe to say that my 185 grain plus P underwoods is virtually the same as the 200 grain plus P Underwood‘s that you tried?

Whether it was a good idea or not, I went ahead and recently loaded those 185 grain Underwood’s that I have into my full-size Beretta PX4 45 and loaded those 230 grain Speer Gold Dots I had also bought that are made specifically for short-barreled 45’s into my XDE. I figured since Speer and Federal are pretty well-known trusted brands that maybe they are onto something with their defense ammunition that they make for short-barrel 45’s.

Again, thanks for posting those results. Really helpful.


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[5pins]

Thank you for that. Really helpful information but in other words to what you’re saying, is that at least in this case having a lighter bullet that was even a plus P with more velocity from more powder, didn’t penetrate as well as even the standard pressure 230 grain bullets, correct? Makes sense to me. I know that the debate has been talked about a lot over some people saying that the heavier, slower round is better than the faster, lighter round and I know that it’s all about trying to find that happy medium there but for the case of the short barrel 45, that’s pretty interesting that your test results showed that the lighter-to-begin with and had more pressure pushing it, didn’t even penetrate like the plain old 230 grain bullet did.

I’m assuming I’m probably answering my own question but I guess it’s safe to say that my 185 grain plus P underwoods is virtually the same as the 200 grain plus P Underwood‘s that you tried?

Whether it was a good idea or not, I went ahead and recently loaded those 185 grain Underwood’s that I have into my full-size Beretta PX4 45 and loaded those 230 grain Speer Gold Dots I had also bought that are made specifically for short-barreled 45’s into my XDE. I figured since Speer and Federal are pretty well-known trusted brands that maybe they are onto something with their defense ammunition that they make for short-barrel 45’s.

Again, thanks for posting those results. Really helpful.


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Sometimes more velocity isn’t always an improvement. Underwood also pushes their +P on the hot side more so then the major manufactures. With the Underwood I got more recoil (the 185gr was very uncomfortable in the Defender) and less reliability but gained nothing in performance. The extra energy gave the bullet more expansion but sacrificed penetration.

[corneileous]

Sometimes more velocity isn’t always an improvement. Underwood also pushes their +P on the hot side more so then the major manufactures. With the Underwood I got more recoil (the 185gr was very uncomfortable in the Defender) and less reliability but gained nothing in performance. The extra energy gave the bullet more expansion but sacrificed penetration.

Yeah, makes sense. Just because it’s going faster isn’t going to mean that it’s gonna have a lot more kinetic energy transferred to whatever it hits. I would imagine a dump truck going 40 miles an hour will probably hit twice as hard as a Prius going 80… LOL.

I had no idea that underwood went kind of above and beyond with their plus p ammo. That was the first time I’ve ever bought plus P anything. But yeah, even probably achieved out of a 4 to 5 inch barrel, I did kinda think that close to 1200 ft./s out of a 185 grain 45 ACP was a little bit fast.

Are they the same way on their standard pressure ammunition? I don’t know, I guess it’s normal for an un-watered down 220 grain 10mm hard cast to be whizzing by at 1200 ft./s, or a 140 grain Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator to be hittin’ 1500 feet per second.

But not to change the subject too much but when it comes to those two 10mm rounds for protection against four-legged predators, would the heavier, slower bullet be better or would the faster, lighter one be better for maximum penetration when expansion is out of the equation?


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[5pins]

Yeah, makes sense. Just because it’s going faster isn’t going to mean that it’s gonna have a lot more kinetic energy transferred to whatever it hits. I would imagine a dump truck going 40 miles an hour will probably hit twice as hard as a Prius going 80… LOL.

I had no idea that underwood went kind of above and beyond with their plus p ammo. That was the first time I’ve ever bought plus P anything. But yeah, even probably achieved out of a 4 to 5 inch barrel, I did kinda think that close to 1200 ft./s out of a 185 grain 45 ACP was a little bit fast.

Are they the same way on their standard pressure ammunition? I don’t know, I guess it’s normal for an un-watered down 220 grain 10mm hard cast to be whizzing by at 1200 ft./s, or a 140 grain Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator to be hittin’ 1500 feet per second.

But not to change the subject too much but when it comes to those two 10mm rounds for protection against four-legged predators, would the heavier, slower bullet be better or would the faster, lighter one be better for maximum penetration when expansion is out of the equation?


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I did a bunch of testing of 10mm, .45, .40, and 9mm for penetration in my Filed Load section. The 220gr will far out penetrate the Xtreme Penetrators. In fact the Xtreme Penetrators were the worst penetrating of all the loads tested.

https://general-cartridge.com/category/field-loads/