IDPA - appendix carry?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

interesting, I can't shoot pistols until I free them from FFL detention due to having to get a permit here. All that is frozen.

Anyway, I asked the local USPSA club that shoots indoors if I could run some stages with a SIRT just to get in some familiarity with their set up and some pseudo trigger time. Despite explaining that and have a long training and competition record, that was not acceptable. I think they didn't get it, sorry to say. It might have offended the more extreme partisans?

[Yung]

Yes, actually I did take a class and it was quite good. Unfortunately that is no longer offered or required.

For me, the class I took was also very good. It was not required back then, but it is now, I believe, at least for unranked shooters.

I am not one of those folks who would ever just jump into a match, and therefore would never have entered competition without a formal class. It took me a long time going through defensive classes at my local range before I even had the guts to go with Citizens Defense Research as my first 'big name' training.

Tom Givens pointed out the generational and cultural differences in his most recent CCR appearance. It was in regards to police training and the firearms familiarity of the average recruit prior to what is taught in academy or OJT, but I think the same gist applies.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Training and getting folks to train is always an issue. When I live in Oregon to get a permit, you just need a short law babble class. However, I decide to take a two day NRA basic pistol class with actual firing experience which also counted. It might be because (I'm great!) trained as a scientist, I believe in researching and education. When I moved to TX, I found Karl Rehn's through the UT adult ed classes. Took his basic stuff and then went on. Then I got into competition and took more classes. I tried USPSA, IDPA, Steel. Found I like the last two the best.

I have friends with safes of guns and can't get them to train or compete. They will shoot a rock at the ranch or a box at the square range to 'train'. Many analyses of males indicate that some can't face training and losing their warrior opinion of themselves. I came it at not being from a gun culture as a kid and thus a blank slate for learning. I knew I wasn't an intuitive advanced Calculus student to just take that course. I wasn't an intuitive shooter. BTW, I think I became a better shooter than advanced mathematician.

[Lost River]

In my country, some action shooting sports (not IDPA but some of the other ones) have fairly strict mandatory safety training classes one has to complete before being allowed to take part in any match, or most organized training, for that sport. Typical class is two days, with day 1 being classroom instruction with a test afterwards, and day 2 being a standardized test match where one has to achieve a defined minimum hit factor to pass the course.

When I'm around these "safety certified" competition shooters I still see shitty reholstering, dangerous holsters, iffy firearms modifications, disregard for safety during less formal events, lack of understanding why the safety rules exist in the first place, etc. I've also run into instructors with shitty attitudes where half their students fail to pass the safety course and the instructors attitude is "learn to shoot you fucking noobs" and have seen newcomers have difficulty passing the test match with ratty loaner guns, due to physical limitations etc. There's also quite a lot of Dunning-Kruger syndrome going on with people who've passed the safety class but do not understand how safe firearms handling in another context may differ from a match environment, but think that since they've been "trained" they know all there is to know about firearms safety.

I'm less than 100% sure the safety classes help much when it comes to safety. I haven't visited matches in the US though, so I can't make a direct comparison.

Sounds like 95% of the POST academies across the United States.

[BigT]

The way he fell, he had little control of the gun and might have broken our 180 rule. Also, his state of excitement was such that I would be wary of his safe continuation of the stage. Rules are rules and safety is more important. He can come to another match when he has his shit together.

I've had a round put next to my foot on a holstering when I was score keeping. Then the idiot started to wave the gun, WHA Happin? SO grabbed him. Saw an SO grab a guy who couldn't get his gun out of his Serpa and was panicking.

Give a safety class as mandatory. Good idea - bad for business? We had a long newbie briefing before each match. Newbies were marked so on their score sheet.

Lots of subjectives there. We don't DQ people for may have or could have. I've DQ people. I've also not DQ'd people because I wasnt sure if they had done the thing.

I've seen world class shooters trip. They had their shit together. They tripped. They didn't break a safety rule so they didnt get a DQ. DQing people without reason is not going to have them coming back.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We will differ on this. Of course, it's subjective to judge whether someone has their shit together. However, a bullet hole is not subjective.

[JRV]

Think of the average IDPA participant.

Think of the average IDPA SO/RO.

Imagine, after all this time, IDPA approves AIWB for those people.

Now imagine the club or the organization being sued after an injury/death.

“What’s the average age and experience of IDPA competitors? Do you allow those competitors to use modified guns with lightened triggers? How long was appendix carry prohibited by IDPA/your club? Does your club conduct personalized inspections of equipment or reholstering techniques? Did you foresee the potential for injury with inexperienced shooters placing modified competition guns down the front of their pants? Was that foreseeable injury the reason for the historical prohibition on appendix carry? Do you understand the risk of fatal or serious injury to be higher or lower as compared to carrying a pistol at or behind the hip? No further questions.”

You might think, but isn’t shooting an inherently risky activity? Don’t people sign waivers? Sure, those are standard practices for any risky behavior. But a club or organization for dangerous activity can expect litigation if they suddenly permit the participants to engage in a behavior that was deemed “too dangerous to allow” for several decades. It would be like a theme park allowing people to forgo using restraints on a rollercoaster, or a private racetrack allowing competitors to stop using safety equipment, race on worn tires, or decorate the track surface with debris or oil.

When a club or organization can no longer afford its insurance, it stops holding matches.

[cheby]

delete

[olstyn]

“What’s the average age and experience of IDPA competitors? Do you allow those competitors to use modified guns with lightened triggers? How long was appendix carry prohibited by IDPA/your club? Does your club conduct personalized inspections of equipment or reholstering techniques? Did you foresee the potential for injury with inexperienced shooters placing modified competition guns down the front of their pants? Was that foreseeable injury the reason for the historical prohibition on appendix carry? Do you understand the risk of fatal or serious injury to be higher or lower as compared to carrying a pistol at or behind the hip? No further questions.”

The problem with this line of reasoning, from my not a lawyer viewpoint at least, is that several divisions in USPSA allow appendix carry, and as far as I'm aware, USPSA's safety record with appendix carry allowed is virtually identical to IDPA's safety record with it prohibited. I don't think you can really draw a logical conclusion that the organization as a whole (or an individual club) would be held liable or shut down on the basis of someone being injured or killed purely because of the detail of appendix carry being present in the situation.

[Clusterfrack]

delete

LOL!