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Thread: Reports of Texas DPS going to 9mm.

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    My thinking is the slide velocity !
    Another Rich I know says the exact same thing. His agency carried 9BPLE and then 124gr +p Gold Dot for their 92G Berettas. He'd see instances in which a dirty, dry, or otherwise abused pistol would fail to run properly with standard pressure practice ammo and then magically spring back to life and complete reliability on a mag full of the higher pressure duty ammo.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    On paper, yeah, the HST gets a little bigger and cuts a little sharper and theoretically is probably 0.00001% more deadly against flying alien robot zomg!bies. In reality the Gold Dot is so universally well respected and proven that it's really, really hard to justify anything else. Except my price on the Gold Dot is about 27% higher.
    Most agencies in my AO issue Gold Dots in varying calibers, mostly .45. The .45 230 grain offerings have performed remarkaby well expanding and either staying in the intended target or not having enough energy to do any damage upon exiting (actually getting caught in the clothing and stopping). The one's I have seen look like a pic from Doc's tests...with the exception of one. It hit the femur cleanly breaking it. The bullet itself shattered into a few pieces and stayed in the thigh.

    ALL of my semi-auto pistols now sport standard pressure Gold Dots...230 grain for .45 & 124 grain for 9mm.

  3. #63
    I tried a box of that 147gr ammo that the AMU uses, and the slide was noticeably slower and the POI shift significantly. Granted, a defensive load is running hotter, but I quickly went back to what I knew would work.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Another Rich I know says the exact same thing. His agency carried 9BPLE and then 124gr +p Gold Dot for their 92G Berettas. He'd see instances in which a dirty, dry, or otherwise abused pistol would fail to run properly with standard pressure practice ammo and then magically spring back to life and complete reliability on a mag full of the higher pressure duty ammo.
    I'm glad to hear some of the pro`s think the same!

  5. #65
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Another Rich I know says the exact same thing. His agency carried 9BPLE and then 124gr +p Gold Dot for their 92G Berettas. He'd see instances in which a dirty, dry, or otherwise abused pistol would fail to run properly with standard pressure practice ammo and then magically spring back to life and complete reliability on a mag full of the higher pressure duty ammo.
    I agree that +P ammo is a good thing in dirty pistols. I have a strong prefence for it in my pocket pistols as they seem to soak up dust and other debris.

    My only issue is that the +P ammo negates a lot of the "9mm for poor shooters" argument. For a while, I was supporting two groups of 9mm shooters - the ones that couldn't qualify and those who were decent shots. I ended up insisting that the non-shooters stay with the 147 gr standard pressure load and bought 124 gr +P for those who could shoot. The extra umph was enough to cause problems with the non-shooters. (I even had one complain about shooting next to me when I was running +P 45)

  6. #66
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    An issue I've seen with a personal gun was extraction problems with +P ammo. Apparently that pistol has marginal extraction from the factory but it was never an issue for thousands of rounds of standard pressure ammo, and continues to not be an issue with that ammo. Adding +P to the mix caused a ridiculous amount of FTE's right away.

    I know the ultimate answer to this problem is "fix the gun". But if I was recommending ammo to someone for their sock-drawer auto pistol I'd be inclined to suggest high quality standard pressure ammo.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    My only issue is that the +P ammo negates a lot of the "9mm for poor shooters" argument.
    It depends on what you mean by "a lot," though. I'd definitely agree that +p 9mm ammo isn't as gentle as SAAMI standard pressure stuff, but it's still substantially easier to control for most poor-to-mediocre shooters than .40 S&W and probably (in most platforms) even a bit easier than standard pressure .45 Auto... and between .45 & 9mm+p the nine wins in terms of ammo cost, capacity, etc.

    (I even had one complain about shooting next to me when I was running +P 45)
    You and I both know there is no ammunition-selection solution for someone like that.

  8. #68
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    You and I both know there is no ammunition-selection solution for someone like that.
    Absolutely true but I could get them to mostly qualify with the 147 grain, generally on the second and last attempt of the day. This kept the brass happy as they didn't pull their badge until they could requalify. Remember, we're suppose to accommodate everyone's level of mediocrity.

    Since they are so generous, I've always held people to the actual time proscribed in the COF and would could shots fired afterwards as misses (which is how it's supposed to be). This led to them bringing another rangemaster from ~150 miles away to qualify one of our "special children." I never saw this "special" person get their 21 hits in the required time but the other instructor was so much better than me that he could make it happen every time.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    Absolutely true but I could get them to mostly qualify with the 147 grain, generally on the second and last attempt of the day. This kept the brass happy as they didn't pull their badge until they could requalify. Remember, we're suppose to accommodate everyone's level of mediocrity.
    Didn't mean to come across as critical of your approach in my previous post. Dude, if 147 creates passing scores out of people who failed with 124+p or 115-p or spitballs, it's a successful plan. I'm simply terrified of the idea that there are LEOs who "can't handle the recoil of the 124gr +p 9mm!" Because yeah, they should be in public armed. Seriously, I'd rather see someone like that issued an HK94. They'll look more intimidating and have an easier time hitting under stress.

    Since they are so generous, I've always held people to the actual time proscribed in the COF and would could shots fired afterwards as misses (which is how it's supposed to be). This led to them bringing another rangemaster from ~150 miles away to qualify one of our "special children." I never saw this "special" person get their 21 hits in the required time but the other instructor was so much better than me that he could make it happen every time.
    Honest to God, I could never be a LE FI. I'd lose my mind and get fired in, like, one day. "No problem, boss. I totally understand why you think Joe can count to 21 so much better than me that it's worth a day's pay and travel. Heck, I'm so impressed with your decision that I'm going to send an email to everyone in your command chain and, just to show how much I love you, I might sent a letter to the local newspaper about it, too!" (note to those who don't know me: yes, I got fired from my last job )

  10. #70
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Todd, you have no idea.


    Ref 9mms; we use standard pressure 124gr ball for training and such, we shoot our 124gr+P once per year during a cold qual when we are cycling old duty ammo out/new duty ammo in. We have had zero issues with folks shooting +P vs non +P using this system, no failures to qual in several years, and we have had a very high hit rate in our OISs. We had a run a couple of years ago with nine OISs in 18 months that were 100% hits.

    I think going this route with training and duty 9mm ammo is ammo valid.

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