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Thread: Reports of Texas DPS going to 9mm.

  1. #31
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Yeah, so was I. The conversations we had at various ranges and trainings were a bit different. This was well before the AWB hit, but I get that the magazine thing helped sell "upgrades".

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpd223 View Post
    This was well before the AWB hit, but I get that the magazine thing helped sell "upgrades".
    I'm confused on the timeline we're talking about, then.

    The guns in .40 S&W began production in 1990, the same year California Highway Patrol adopted the 4006. By '93 quite a few state agencies (and I'm sure plenty of municipal departments & SOs) had already switched. In late '94 the AWB went into effect. The big push to "upgrade" departments to .40 began in early '95. The Bureau adopted the .40 in 1997.

    The fact that the Bureau is now considering a switch back to 9mm is pretty amazing considering the history. They were pretty late adopters of the .40 but may be one of the first big agencies to ditch it.

  3. #33
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    The wound ballistic testing of the .40, by the FBI, proving the concept as equal to the mid range 10mm, happened almost as soon as the .40 hit the market.

    One example of the FBI influence; My agency adopted the 9mm when transitioning from wheelguns starting about 1989, we went with the 147gr as a duty load immediately, only because the FBI was putting out info that this was the best possible choice.
    There was talk of us going to 10mms, and shortly afterwards to the .40 since it basically equaled the 10mm and was available in the 4006 (we were carrying the 5906 at the time).

  4. #34
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    Got it. I thought you meant the Bureau's adoption rather than testing...

  5. #35
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Got it. I thought you meant the Bureau's adoption rather than testing...
    No, I meant their influence in general, but yeah, the testing started the ball rolling. If the 10mm was the ultimate duty round, and the .40 was equal to it, and the .45 was too big, and the 9mm sucked because Miami.....


    The very first thing I got hit with when I rolled into the station to tell the boss we had serious issues with our G22s was "The FBI issues Glock 22s and they aren't having any problems...", making the whole thing my fault.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpd223 View Post
    The very first thing I got hit with when I rolled into the station to tell the boss we had serious issues with our G22s was "The FBI issues Glock 22s and they aren't having any problems..."
    I hope he makes it back to Earth before the Stargate closes...

  7. #37
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    I hope he makes it back to Earth before the Stargate closes...
    That mess was a real lesson in human denial and some other crazy BS.

  8. #38
    The .40SW wouldn't be on the market if it wasn't for the FBI's response to the Miami Shoutout.

    If the FBI switches to 9mm, the trend will be other agencies following with their next firearms purchases.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by tpd223 View Post
    My agency adopted the 9mm when transitioning from wheelguns starting about 1989, we went with the 147gr as a duty load immediately, only because the FBI was putting out info that this was the best possible choice.
    Ditto us. We started off with the Winchester QSM (Q4217) loading, then moved to Hydra-Shoks. We had excellent results with both on meat; not so hot on vehicles.

    Interesting re your satisfaction with the 124gr +P HST on cars.

    According to ATK, that bullet is the LEAST likely of the various HST projectiles to stay together when transiting barriers, auto safety glass in particular, because of the relatively short bearing surface (which translates to a commensurately less area the core and jacket have to "grip" each other).

    We're issuing 180gr .40 HST now, but thankfully have hit a dry spell in regards to OIS. Ditto the local SO, which also issues that round. We at the lab are waiting to see some "meat bullets" for examination.

    The local PD issues 180gr and 147gr Gold Dots, and have had very good success with those on meat. In fact, the last two 9mm Gold Dots that came out of misbehaving citizens could have been used for advertising photgraphs to show classic expansion. Barrier penetration has been so-so. But if I couldn't get HST for my personal use, Gold Dots would be my second choice.

    .

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpd223 View Post
    Shooting actual cars in testing and not doing some serious looking at what the bullets hit through various parts of the car, like mechanisms inside the doors, etc., can easily lead one to make false conclusions.

    For a test to be completely valid one would need the same make/model/year cars and hit them at the same angle and point of impact with each of the rounds being tested. I know of no one who has done this.

    Just shooting up cars to see what generally happens is really educational, but hard conclusions are often wrong in my experience.
    excellent point

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