POA vs POI on a heeling issue...

[JodyH]

I have recently acquired (past 2 months) an issue that has been diagnosed as heeling. I've diagnosed it, an instructor has diagnosed it and JodyH has seen it via the HK forum

I still think your problem is probably sight alignment, follow through and trigger control rather than a grip issue like heeling.

double-Tapatalk

[BaiHu]

I still think your problem is probably sight alignment, follow through and trigger control rather than a grip issue like heeling.

double-Tapatalk

My mistake, JodyH, you've seen my problem, but I forgot what you said was wrong.
Is my sight alignment too shaky?
My follow through could use more focus.
My dry fire and ball/dummy seem to be doing well, I've even been working with a penny on my front sight with success in DA and SA.

I need to get to one of these classes, but I'm still too much of a noob to qualify for one, but I'm trying...

BH

[virginiatactical]

I have read this thread quite thoroughly, and I might know what the issue is. Of course this is just by reading your thread. In order to properly correct the issue I would do a few things ... but here goes my input.

1) There is a large possibility that the ammunition that you are using shoots higher on your stock sights. I am looking at your groups and they are decent sized groups. You are very consistent. What type of ammo are you using?

1R (reason). If you change from a 115gr 9mm shooting at 1200 fps to a 124gr 9mm shooting at 1100 you will often see the group rise. For my best POA/POI in my M&P9s I have custom made my load .. 124gr CMJS shooting at 1045 fps. They are balls accurate for my 5inch barrels. Have you tried a different round? What are you shooting?

2) Though a 3x5 card at 10 yds is a onerous target for most people, your groups tell me you would not have a cumbersome task by taking your distance further. What do your groups look like at 25 yards? If you have a 2 inch rise at at 10yds, your aberration should spread exponentially at 25 yards. I have had a similar problem when I first procured my first M&P. It shot 2 inches low (backwards of your dilemma), and it was not my marksmanship issues that were at fault, but my front sight issues. My sight was too low, and needed to be raised to a .195 hieght shooting my duty ammo (A363).

2R) Depending on your POA/POI at 25 yards this would help define if you are indeed heeling or actually just need a lower front sight. Of course if changing your ammo fixes this then there is no need to change your sight, but if you are sitting on 5,000 rounds of A363 .. you might consider purchasing a sight that will match that ammo.

3) It is in my experience that "heeling" is often seen at slow fire, but not so much at a sustained rate of fire. Of course this will depend on your skill level, but when you draw and engage your "target" with two rounds under a time limit (once again the speed depends on your skill level and level of training), do you also see your groups higher or are they at POA/POI?

3A: What is your average splits between shots?

3B: What is your draw time?

3R) If your shots are indeed POA/POI with a reasonable time frame on splits (.25) at 7 yards then this would further enforce that your front sight might be too hight. If not then this would lead me to believe that you are indeed heeling.

I hope this helps, but if there is any confusing please let me know and I will explain it to the best of my abilities.

Good Luck!

[BaiHu]

Thanks for all of your input. I'll do my best to address all of your thoughts.

1) There is a large possibility that the ammunition that you are using shoots higher on your stock sights. I am looking at your groups and they are decent sized groups. You are very consistent. What type of ammo are you using?

PMC 115gr, but I did break the P30L in with Fed 124gr and I haven't pulled it out lately-good thought and perhaps this weekend I'll get a chance to run this drill again with 124.

2) Though a 3x5 card at 10 yds is a onerous target for most people, your groups tell me you would not have a cumbersome task by taking your distance further. What do your groups look like at 25 yards?

Earlier in the thread you'll see my 30 ft, but I haven't had the confidence to go out to 25 yds yet since this problem set in. Again, maybe I'll try this weekend.

3) It is in my experience that "heeling" is often seen at slow fire, but not so much at a sustained rate of fire. Of course this will depend on your skill level, but when you draw and engage your "target" with two rounds under a time limit (once again the speed depends on your skill level and level of training), do you also see your groups higher or are they at POA/POI?

Here's a large part of my dilemma:
a) I'm not LEO.
b) I live in the Commie Repulic of New Jerseystan.
c) I am in a club that doesn't allow draw and fire, but I can do quick fire if no one's around, but I have very little experience doing that outside of some metal/tactical targets at 5-7 yds.
d) The remainder of your questions end up being moot. I have no clock and no ability to try this until I get involved in a group.

Thanks,
BH

[ToddG]

You've indicated where your point of aim is, but is that where you're putting the top edge of the front sight or where you're putting the dot?

Regardless of whether you're using the edge or dot, is the top edge of the front sight in perfect alignment with the top edge of the rear shot when you break your shot?

[BaiHu]

You've indicated where your point of aim is, but is that where you're putting the top edge of the front sight or where you're putting the dot?

Regardless of whether you're using the edge or dot, is the top edge of the front sight in perfect alignment with the top edge of the rear shot when you break your shot?

I'm lining up the front and rear sights so that the edge meets my POA.

As to your second question, just b/c I can pass the ball/dummy, and have a penny stay still on my front sight when I work my dry fire doesn't mean I'm so perfectly steady when I'm shooting 'live'.

I'm assuming that they are in perfect alignment, but you know what they say about assuming. I know my follow through could use some work, b/c I often find myself looking beyond my sights to see the outcome of the shot and then quickly return to the front sight.

Hope that clarifies.