POA vs POI on a heeling issue...

[BaiHu]

First I'd like to thank everyone on this forum for all the knowledge I've already received. I learned about this forum through the guys at HKPro.

With that out of the way, I need some help.

I shoot RH.
I have a proper 2Handed high grip in isosceles with a straight back posture according to my instructor. I have recently come up from a rolled shoulders and head forward posture that might have coincided with my heeling issue.
I shoot FNP45, CZ 75 in 9mm and 40, HK45, HK P30L 9mm (the current gun I'm focusing on w/ this problem)
I'm practicing in slow fire mode in DA first and then SA second for 6 round/mag on 4 mags.

Here's my problem (with all of my pistols now):

I have recently acquired (past 2 months) an issue that has been diagnosed as heeling. I've diagnosed it, an instructor has diagnosed it and JodyH has seen it via the HK forum on video/pictures, but there is a new twist.

I've been working on it for the last 1000 rds over the past 4 weeks and today I noticed that when I was doing a 3x5 card drill at 30 feet, that I was hitting the card when my POA was at lollipop, but when my POA was at the center of the card, I would graze the top of the card.

My consistent issue seems to be about 1-2 inches high and no one can 'catch' me in the act of heeling-even with ball/dummy drills, bench rest, etc. Before I declare this just a unique way that I shoot, I'd like your advice.

The two pictures you're looking at were shot 6 rds per card starting upper left to upper right and then lower left to lower right all off hand.

The first picture, you can see that most of my shots are just above the card and by the fourth card, I'm getting them all on the card although very high.

The second picture, you can see that I'm getting better/consistent with hitting the card as I edge my POA to a lollipop versus the typical cover that HKs seem to 'require'.

Almost forgot: there is an extra round in the 1st and 3rd card b/c there were 2 rds left in the box, so I did DA up top and SA on the bottom.

Any help would be greatly appreciated and thanks again for all this forum and its inhabitants do for the shooting community.

http://s739.photobucket.com/albums/x...t=3x51stRd.jpg

http://s739.photobucket.com/albums/x...t=3x52ndRd.jpg

[YVK]

My consistent issue seems to be about 1-2 inches high and no one can 'catch' me in the act of heeling-even with ball/dummy drills, bench rest, etc.

If nobody can catch you, then how do they know you're heeling?

The real experts will come and chime in soon. What I understand about heeling is that it is a type of anticipation. There is no better way to at least diagnose, and maybe treat anticipation than ball and dummy at slow pace.

I personally would want to be absolutely sure you are heeling. I'd bring the target closer (21-24) and I'd shoot it at very slow pace, with your softest shooting pistol, in SA mode, B/D drill, with experienced instructor watching. If you're still hitting high and nobody sees barrel go up before dummy shots, I'd be very skeptical about heeling as a diagnosis here. There is a large number of other reasons why people shoot high systematically.

[ToddG]

I've been working on it for the last 1000 rds over the past 4 weeks and today I noticed that when I was doing a 3x5 card drill at 30 feet, that I was hitting the card when my POA was at lollipop, but when my POA was at the center of the card, I would graze the top of the card.

Can you explain "lollipop" to me?

If what you're saying is, "When I put my front sight higher on the target my shots go higher," I'd say that is the expected result, no?

[JM Campbell]

If he is refering to "lollipop" like in rifle sights, the target is above the front sight. The sight is the stick, target is the pop. So if this assumption is right he should be shooting low.

[BaiHu]

Thanks for the replies folks.

When I mean no one can catch me, I mean even the few times I fail ball/dummy, it is a dip or a wobble, not a rise. The instructor thought that my heeling my only be occurring in the midst of the recoil.

I consistently have POIs higher than my POA. Meaning, with HK, usually a 'cover the bulls eye' technique should put you on the bulls eye. Now when I do that, my POIs are 1-2 inches higher than my intended POA.

So I switched my POA to a 'lollipop' or 6 o'clock hold yesterday. My sight alignment is right at the BOTTOM edge of the index card now and you can see the results in the 4th card of the second picture. Compare this with a POA of right smack in the middle of a card for a middle POI.

It is my understanding, especially with HKs, that my POA should be a 'cover the bulls eye' sight alignment for POIs on the bulls eye, but when I do that, no matter my pistol, no matter the distance, I'm getting POIs at 1-2 inches too high.

For some perspective, I used to be more accurate, but less consistent. Meaning, my groups were loose, but I would hit the bulls eye more often. Now I have much better groups, but I can only seem to put that group at 1-2 inches above the bull. Obviously this drill was more of an experiment for me and I didn't bother making a mark on the cards, I just wanted to edge my POA down on each card.

Hope that makes sense and thanks.

[mnealtx]

Have you tried shooting off a rest, and do you get the same results?

[JV_]

Have you tried shooting the gun from a rest / sand bag?

[ToddG]

When you are aiming at the bottom edge of the card, is your aiming point the dot or the top edge of the front sight? In other words, what exactly is aiming at the bottom edge of the card?

[BaiHu]

Have you tried shooting the gun from a rest / sand bag?

Yes, I have, but possibly not enough. I had the same higher POI for a center hold or 'cover the bulls eye' with the front sight hold (those are the same holds to me, btw-LOL).

[BaiHu]

When you are aiming at the bottom edge of the card, is your aiming point the dot or the top edge of the front sight? In other words, what exactly is aiming at the bottom edge of the card?

AWESOME question-I've never had anyone ask me that. The top edge of my iron sights are at the bottom of the card (6 o'clock hold), but I'm off hand, so it probably waivers to the front sight dot being at that edge.