Reviewing various Quals, to understand different priorities in speed versus accuracy

[jlw]

Standards are a good thing. Curious how your cops dealt with the change. Did weak shooters actually seek out coaching and/or practice on their own? Have you had to bench many folks?

There was a lot that lead up to it, but the short story is that personnel by and large weren't taking advantage of open range days. This really wasn't cost efficient. So, I changed the policy this year concerning remedial training. Personnel, as in years past, could attend as many range dates as they wished as long as they shot their actual qualifications cold meaning that they had to tell the instructors they were there to qualify and couldn't "warm up".

We had one deputy who chose to not take advantage of any practice and sought to qualify on the first day. They didn't make it. Attendance spiked after that.

[41magfan]

Standards are a good thing. Curious how your cops dealt with the change. Did weak shooters actually seek out coaching and/or practice on their own? Have you had to bench many folks?

Those of you with management experience are well aware of the bell curve relating to work performance. The majority will do what’s expected and the two smaller groups at either end will always exceed or fall short of the clearly stated expectation.

I worked for two agencies in days past that allowed me to increase minimum qualification standards incrementally over a period of time, and while we had a few bumps in the road, only a handful of people were adversely affected. In both cases our COF was perhaps the toughest in the State (as best I could determine) and on top of that we increased the minimum passing score from 70% to 80% for all members. Tactical folks had to shoot 95% or better and in all cases we shot the Official USPSA/IPSC target. Most new hires and transfers from other agencies got big-eyed when they had to qualify initially.

I can count on one hand how many ultimately lost their jobs for failing to meet the standards, and in no case did we ever lose anyone worth crying over. Most agencies make raising standards a bigger deal than it ought to be and it often only takes one person to keep the heat on. Regrettably, both of the agencies I worked for have backslidden to some degree, but I'm not surprised since my influence as a PITA is no longer a factor.

[wilco423]

Here's our current qual, which we adopted a year ago. Our range is 18yds to the shooting stalls, which is why the longest engagement ranges are a little short. Scoring is 2 points per hit in called target zone, 1 point per hit in the remainder of the silhouette, DQ for anything off the silhouette. 100 points max, 80 minimum passing. The target is the TRICON. It needs some refinement, but was a step in the right direction, for us.

1)	5yds	Draw and fire 2 to the chest	3 sec	4 reps	8
2)	~1yd	On “move,” break contact and move off the “X” as appropriate for the range. On “threat,” draw and fire 3 to the chest	No limit	2 reps	6
3)	3yds	From low ready, fire 2 to the chest	2 sec	2 reps	4
4)	5yds	Strong hand only. Draw and fire 2 to the chest.	4 sec	1 rep	2
5)	5yds	Weak hand only. From low ready, fire 2 to chest.	3 sec	1 rep	2
6)	7yds	Draw and fire 2 to the chest, one to the face.	6 sec	1 rep	3
7)	5yds	2 rounds in gun, reload available. Draw and fire 2, reload, fire 3, all to the chest.	10 sec	1 rep	5
8)	15yds	Barricade. Load mag with 7 live and 2 dummy rounds. Strong side, low ready, fire 4 live rounds to chest, move to weak side, fire 3 live rounds to chest. Clear malfunctions as needed.	18 sec	1 rep	7
9)	15yds	Low light, shooting when moving. Low ready, flashlight or weapon light out/on. On “move,” walk from 15 to 5 yd line. Fire 6 rounds to the chest while moving. Must fire rounds before reaching 5 yd line.	No limit	1 rep	6
10)	STALL/ 18 yds	Low light, charging target. Low ready, flashlight or weapon light out/on, scanning. Target will charge towards officer. Fire 7 rounds to chest before target reaches officer.	No limit	1 rep	7

[wilco423]

Sorry for the second post. Saw the formatting was all goofed up on Tapatalk, and missed the edit cutoff window.
1) 5yds - Draw and fire 2 to the chest - 3 sec - 4 reps

2) ~1yd - On “move,” break contact and move off the “X” as appropriate for the range. On “threat,” draw and fire 3 to the chest - No limit - 2 reps

3) 3yds - From low ready, fire 2 to the chest - 2 sec - 2 reps

4) 5yds - Strong hand only. Draw and fire 2 to the chest. - 4 sec - 1 rep

5) 5yds - Weak hand only. From low ready, fire 2 to chest. - 3 sec - 1 rep6) 7yds

6) 7yds - Draw and fire 2 to the chest, one to the face. - 6 sec - 1 rep

7) 5yds - 2 rounds in gun, reload available. Draw and fire 2, reload, fire 3, all to the chest. - 10 sec - 1 rep

8) 15yds - Barricade. Load mag with 7 live and 2 dummy rounds.
Strong side, low ready, fire 4 live rounds to chest, move to weak side, fire 3 live rounds to chest. Clear malfunctions as needed. - 18 sec - 1 rep

9) 15yds - Low light, shooting when moving. Low ready, flashlight or weapon light out/on. On “move,” walk from 15 to 5 yd line. Fire 6 rounds to the chest while moving. Must fire rounds before reaching 5 yd line. - No limit - 1 rep

10) STALL/18 yds - Low light, charging target. Low ready, flashlight or weapon light out/on, scanning. Target will charge towards officer. Fire 7 rounds to chest before target reaches officer. - No limit - 1 rep

[167]

This is the course used by several LE angecies in Arkansas and it is shot on a B27. At least that is my understanding.

Handgun Speed & Accuracy COF

Distance: 25yd
From Holster: 2rds/6sec
From Ready: 2rds/5sec
From Ready: 2rds/5sec

Distance: 15yd
From Holster: 3rds/5sec
From Ready: 3rds/4sec
From Holster: 2rds/4sec
From Ready: 1rd/2sec
From Holster: 2rds/4sec
From Ready: 1rd/2sec

Distance: 7yd
From Holster: 5rds/15sec (R)
From Holster: 3rds/4sec
From Ready: 3rds/3sec
From Ready: 3rds/3sec

Distance: 3yd
From Holster: 3rds/12sec (R)
WHO From Holster: 2rds/3sec
WHO From Ready: 2rds/2sec
WHO From Ready: 2rds/2sec
SHO From Holster: 2rds/3sec
SHO From Ready: 2rds/2sec
SHO From Ready: 2rds/2sec

[gringop]

This is the course used by several LE angecies in Arkansas and it is shot on a B27. At least that is my understanding.

Handgun Speed & Accuracy COF

Distance: 25yd
From Holster: 2rds/6sec
From Ready: 2rds/5sec
From Ready: 2rds/5sec

Distance: 15yd
From Holster: 3rds/5sec
From Ready: 3rds/4sec
From Holster: 2rds/4sec
From Ready: 1rd/2sec
From Holster: 2rds/4sec
From Ready: 1rd/2sec

Distance: 7yd
From Holster: 5rds/15sec (R)
From Holster: 3rds/4sec
From Ready: 3rds/3sec
From Ready: 3rds/3sec

Distance: 3yd
From Holster: 3rds/12sec (R)
WHO From Holster: 2rds/3sec
WHO From Ready: 2rds/2sec
WHO From Ready: 2rds/2sec
SHO From Holster: 2rds/3sec
SHO From Ready: 2rds/2sec
SHO From Ready: 2rds/2sec

Drawing WHO from the holster 2 rounds in 3 seconds?
Is that the bend forward and draw behind the back and shoot or the reach across, draw it upside down, roll it upright on your chest and then shoot? All with a retention holster?


Gringop

[psalms144.1]

We use the FLETC Standard Police Practical Course, which I think they now call the Semiauto Pistol Course. It's shot between 1.5-25 yards, with "movement" in each engagement (typically one step off line left, right, or rear). Target is the TRANSTAR III (https://letargets.com/estylez_item.a...m=LTR-III+BLUE) with it's VERY forgiving scoring zones. Standard for us is 210/300 (60 round COF) - in other words, written so that it's NEARLY impossible to fail.

As stated in an earlier thread, I feel that the COF is ridiculously easy, so I modified the TS-IIIs with a CNS and "golden triangle" overlay - CNS hits are 5 points, triangle 3 - everything else 1 point. Any miss of the silhouette is a fail.

So, I guess you could say that I'm in the "accuracy first" camp - because I know, from my own training and training countless other new and marginal shooters, that, once you get the fundamentals correct, you can train to do them all faster. If you train for speed first, IMHO, chances of ever being able to really make hits count is low...

Regards,

Kevin

[167]

Drawing WHO from the holster 2 rounds in 3 seconds?
Is that the bend forward and draw behind the back and shoot or the reach across, draw it upside down, roll it upright on your chest and then shoot? All with a retention holster?


Gringop

Of the people that I know who use this course, they draw as normal and just pass the gun off to the support hand. The way it is worded in the COF though, you would think it is a true WHO draw.

[ToddG]

assuming we believe the various quals reflects their organization's beliefs

I believe that is an untrue premiss in many (probably almost all) cases.

Plenty of agencies have their qual dictated by state boards, thus creating a complete disconnect between what the agency's FIs believe is important and what the qual tests. This places a ridiculous burden on the agency because they still need to spend time teaching people to pass the mandated qual (which could mean teaching techniques or prioritizing facets of shooting that are 180 out from what the agency's institutional experience suggests is appropriate).

Those quals -- and many others -- are developed by people who have concerns that go far beyond promoting realistic training priorities. Chief among the more common (and usually more important) factors are pass rates and legal defensibility when someone fails and possibly loses a job.

Agencies also need a qual that is easy to administer to dozens of people simultaneously (which is why you almost always seen PAR scoring rather than any kind of Time Plus, hit factor, etc).

In the case of the old FAM PTC, it had to be developed to range limitations because the same test had to be executed at a number of different small airport firing ranges across the country, but usually to a very small number of people at a time... like, 1 or 2.

[jlw]

I believe that is an untrue premiss in many (probably almost all) cases.

Plenty of agencies have their qual dictated by state boards, thus creating a complete disconnect between what the agency's FIs believe is important and what the qual tests. This places a ridiculous burden on the agency because they still need to spend time teaching people to pass the mandated qual (which could mean teaching techniques or prioritizing facets of shooting that are 180 out from what the agency's institutional experience suggests is appropriate).

Those quals -- and many others -- are developed by people who have concerns that go far beyond promoting realistic training priorities. Chief among the more common (and usually more important) factors are pass rates and legal defensibility when someone fails and possibly loses a job.

Agencies also need a qual that is easy to administer to dozens of people simultaneously (which is why you almost always seen PAR scoring rather than any kind of Time Plus, hit factor, etc).

In the case of the old FAM PTC, it had to be developed to range limitations because the same test had to be executed at a number of different small airport firing ranges across the country, but usually to a very small number of people at a time... like, 1 or 2.

I concur. The GA course is most certainly does not reflect the beliefs of our agency.