How Relevant is LE and Military Experience to Private Citizens?

[ToddG]

I'd wager that the "average cop" is by far more proficient than the "average gun owner" or average "carry license/permit holder".

Absolutely. Anyone who thinks the typical CCWer has any measurable skill whatsoever is fooling himself.

Think about this: the typical cop gets 40+ hours of formal firearms training (at least some of which is in low light), use of force decision making training, training about the legalities of use of force, and often at least some force-on-force training. On top of that he's going to have to prove a minimum (and it usually is minimal) level of skill at least once a year when he qualifies. And we criticize that average cop for not taking his training seriously and not really being proficient by "our" terms.

Compare this to the average CCWer who: may or may not have to take a 1- or 2-day class that may or may not require any live fire and (in no State I'm aware of) requires any low-light or FOF training.

How can you even try to compare the two? And that's before you get into aspects like the police officer's far greater likelihood of dealing with UOF decisions multiple times in his career, his exposure to criminals (and probably violent criminals) far more often than the average CCWer, the likelihood that he'll have a decent gun in a decent caliber with which to fight, etc.

I think the typical police officer is woefully, pathetically under-trained with minimal motivation to get better.

I think the typical CCWer is, for all intents and purposes, completely untrained and doesn't even have a clue as to why he could ever need to be better.

Remember, all those guys at the public range we make fun of are the ones who are practicing ... and they probably don't make up 10% of the CCWers out there.

FWIW, it is an article of faith among most of the traveling "name" instructors that the sum total of serious students in this country, the ones who take multiple classes and practice with anything resembling regularity, is less than 10,000. In the country. Total.

How many cops in the US?
How many CCWs?

[Chuck Whitlock]

^^^^^

To add to the thought, Rangemaster's numbers are largely those self-same average CCWers. Tom has said that the majority were not "gun people".

[ToddG]

^^^^^

To add to the thought, Rangemaster's numbers are largely those self-same average CCWers. Tom has said that the majority were not "gun people".

Having been through -- and taught, years and years ago -- "CCW classes" for multiple organizations, I respectfully submit that Tom's version of a CCW class is on steroids and is completely unrepresentative of the norm. Most people teach CCW classes as a side hobby to make some cash by putting people through an assembly line process. Tom does it professionally and with a sincere focus that I'm willing to bet far exceeds his state's mandated minimum requirement.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I would wholeheartedly agree with that submission.

[Alaskapopo]

Absolutely. Anyone who thinks the typical CCWer has any measurable skill whatsoever is fooling himself.

Think about this: the typical cop gets 40+ hours of formal firearms training (at least some of which is in low light), use of force decision making training, training about the legalities of use of force, and often at least some force-on-force training. On top of that he's going to have to prove a minimum (and it usually is minimal) level of skill at least once a year when he qualifies. And we criticize that average cop for not taking his training seriously and not really being proficient by "our" terms.

Compare this to the average CCWer who: may or may not have to take a 1- or 2-day class that may or may not require any live fire and (in no State I'm aware of) requires any low-light or FOF training.

How can you even try to compare the two? And that's before you get into aspects like the police officer's far greater likelihood of dealing with UOF decisions multiple times in his career, his exposure to criminals (and probably violent criminals) far more often than the average CCWer, the likelihood that he'll have a decent gun in a decent caliber with which to fight, etc.

I think the typical police officer is woefully, pathetically under-trained with minimal motivation to get better.

I think the typical CCWer is, for all intents and purposes, completely untrained and doesn't even have a clue as to why he could ever need to be better.

Remember, all those guys at the public range we make fun of are the ones who are practicing ... and they probably don't make up 10% of the CCWers out there.

FWIW, it is an article of faith among most of the traveling "name" instructors that the sum total of serious students in this country, the ones who take multiple classes and practice with anything resembling regularity, is less than 10,000. In the country. Total.

How many cops in the US?
How many CCWs?

Totally agree with this post.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

IMO, this decison making process also accounts for some of the differences you see in patrol vs SWAT shooting hit rates. It's a lot easier when there is no ambiguity about what's happening.

Ken

Dead on here. Patrol is far more likely to be ambushed and not know just how deep they are fubared when things start when SWAT generally knows exactly what is going on and they go in with the mindset they may have to shoot some being more likely than not. Plus having a long gun in your hand beats a pistol in the holster any day for hit probability.