How Relevant is LE and Military Experience to Private Citizens?

[ToddG]

While I would go to a class being taught by a GM shooter to improve my skills, I do tend to notice that a lot of such folks walk off the range with all of their guns in a bag.
That's a problem for me.

I just wanted to +1 this but also point out that it has to be taken in context. A guy whose only concern is drawing from a race rig to hit a target with a guaranteed-safe backstop and whose greatest penalty for a "deadly" mistake will be losing a match may have different priorities when choosing what techniques (and gear) he uses and recommends.

Does that mean he's got nothing worth learning? No. Just understand what he's teaching in his context. Not everything that works best in a game is best in a fight.

This exact same contextual analysis applies to LE, MIL, CCW, or any other experience & training. A fantastic example is the difference between what instructors teach in terms of "lone man" room clearing. Some actually have a system built around the lone defender, Southnarc's AMIS being the best well known around here. More commonly, instructors adapt institutionalized team tactics by teaching you what the point man should do plus some "check six!" thrown in for good measure. (note that both sets of instructors have cool sounding LE or MIL credentials, but only some of them are teaching to the proper context)

It's the morons that keep me from teaching. Best that I don't waste anyone's time.
Mostly my own.

There are plenty of ways to minimize moronity as long as you're willing to accept that morons tend to pay well and you're giving up that revenue stream. I'm a perfect example of how easy it is not to have a "level 1" type class, teach regularly, and not deal with as many morons.

Probably one of the best classes was a Raleigh SWAT guy that also (wait for it) shoots both IDPA & USPSA. His skills and knowledge base are very applicable to what he was teaching. I will be taking an advanced pistol class from him in the near future.

Is that Tom? I've taught at some of the same IALEFI conferences he has and have been to his advanced carbine class. He's an incredible instructor and is totally wasted staying close to home instead of hitting the national circuit. SLG and I tried to explain it to him over dinner one night but he seemed happy doing the work/family thing instead of living the excitement of airport security checks and random unfamiliar shooting facilities.

I focused on "desirable skill level" with a sidearm for a reason—to remove a lot of the above clutter.

... but then you list:

Another overlap is experience in stress environments. Another overlap is movement in/around stationary and mobile structures while evaluating cover/concealment. Low-/No-light techniques. Pre-hospital medical, H2H combatives, retention, inter-personal communication and so forth.

And I'd suggest that no one from any unit, agency, or walk of life is truly world class at all of those things, especially when it comes to having an ability to communicate and transfer skill to another person.

A good Tier 1/SWAT instructor is the practical culmination of these integrated skills. If they choose to conduct an open enrollment class then they understand their intended audience and instruct accordingly.

Some do, some don't. There are more than a few guys on the circuit who do quite the opposite, attempting to give their students the look & feel of a "high speed SPECOPS ninja" training experience for a couple of days. Bringing this back to the first post I quoted above, an instructor who shows up with a retention drop rig to teach from, then takes it off and doesn't carry a gun (or sticks a j-frame in his pocket) doesn't understand me as an audience and probably hasn't instructed "accordingly."

But -- just like the competition instructor who doesn't carry -- that doesn't mean he didn't cover good stuff that I can use. LE/MIL guys are far more likely to have received proper training on combat-related stress management (pre-, during, and post-event), and are far more likely to have personal experiences to which they can relate that training, than someone who hasn't had a career like that. They probably have a far better understanding of fight chaos and how much more multidimensional a life-or-death shooting is likely to be than any range exercise can simulate. Etc.

Put another way, if not for the training I've had from LE/MIL guys, I don't think I'd even understand the "context" issue to begin with. The fact that it's taught me there are differences between their context and mine doesn't change that.

[KeeFus]

Is that Tom? I've taught at some of the same IALEFI conferences he has and have been to his advanced carbine class. He's an incredible instructor and is totally wasted staying close to home instead of hitting the national circuit. SLG and I tried to explain it to him over dinner one night but he seemed happy doing the work/family thing instead of living the excitement of airport security checks and random unfamiliar shooting facilities.

Yea, he's one of them. I took his Close Quarters Pistol class back in the late 90's. Great class! Did it with a Sig P226 in a Safariland 070 holster. Tom retired as a Captain a few years ago but I understand that he is still teaching in some local community colleges.

More recently another Raleigh SWAT guy is teaching a lot of classes. "Dave" recently got promoted to Sgt and I think he is back on the road but he may now be back in SWAT. His low light/no light class is second to none. He's a beast. I want to say that he's also sponsored by a few companies for IDPA/USPSA and I think that he's now evolving into 3-gun.

[fn/form]

... but then you list:
...
And I'd suggest that no one from any unit, agency, or walk of life is truly world class at all of those things, especially when it comes to having an ability to communicate and transfer skill to another person.
...
...Some do, some don't. There are more than a few guys on the circuit who do quite the opposite, attempting to give their students the look & feel of a "high speed SPECOPS ninja" training experience for a couple of days. Bringing this back to the first post I quoted above, an instructor who shows up with a retention drop rig to teach from, then takes it off and doesn't carry a gun (or sticks a j-frame in his pocket) doesn't understand me as an audience and probably hasn't instructed "accordingly."

These are the reasons I carefully chose the words "good instructor" and "practical culmination".

I started to address those who don't fit the mold, but to encompass all their shapes and sizes would be a waste of time and a lot of words. And I'm sure I'd still miss a few. We're only interested in those who are able, the "good instructors".

To call Tier 1 The Culmination is unrealistic and also holds them to an unrealistic standard. Hence the "practical" modifier, which is no lesser accomplishment, just reflecting they're human. Do I have to spell out the fact some are better at recon, others shooting, still others at medic or comms? It should go without saying.

But -- just like the competition instructor who doesn't carry -- that doesn't mean he didn't cover good stuff that I can use. LE/MIL guys are far more likely to have received proper training on combat-related stress management (pre-, during, and post-event), and are far more likely to have personal experiences to which they can relate that training, than someone who hasn't had a career like that. They probably have a far better understanding of fight chaos and how much more multidimensional a life-or-death shooting is likely to be than any range exercise can simulate. Etc.

Put another way, if not for the training I've had from LE/MIL guys, I don't think I'd even understand the "context" issue to begin with. The fact that it's taught me there are differences between their context and mine doesn't change that.

I agree 100%. I took the long way around. I'm guilty of seeking the Holy Grail of training--and writing off certain competition events in the process.

It turns out I can't afford the Holy Grail, and I can make more a lot more than a purse out of a sow's ear. I'll take what I can get.

[Grizzly21]

My list is short. Tom Givens and TLG. I've taken in-service LE weapon classes but they were geared toward low light/no light, Close Quarters Pistol & Officer Survival. Probably one of the best classes was a Raleigh SWAT guy that also (wait for it) shoots both IDPA & USPSA. His skills and knowledge base are very applicable to what he was teaching. I will be taking an advanced pistol class from him in the near future.

My own experience with LE and off duty carry is that by and large they don't. There is an agency in my area that will not allow their officers to take their issued weapons out of county. Just recently I was out with my wife in town and ran across a couple of guys I work with, one of which is one of our firearms instructors. Neither of them were carrying but I was. I would venture to say that in my area a very small percentage carries off duty.

I work with KeeFus and I'm one the agency firearms instructors(however not the one mentioned above). I always carry off duty, 1 for sure, 2 most of the time and 3 on occassion depending on my daily activities. In my experience a large majority of LE does not carry off duty because they look at the issued handgun as just that, its part of the equipment issued for work so why do I need to carry a gun when I'm off duty. In NC the minimum firearms qualification score is 70% and with our agency we have a small percentage of officers that shoot between 70 & 80% and a majority that shoot between 81 & 90% and a very small group that shoots 91 & 100% consistently every time at the range. Most officers don't have the desire to go to the range even when the department is providing the ammo so there is very little if any improvement from year to year. Very few officers seek out any additional firearms training throughout the year. I teach in-service firearms and civilian concealed carry classes and for the most part the civilians are more focused and want to be in the training. Most civilians have the idea that police officers can shoot and carry guns all the time and I explain to them how a large percentage of officers don't carry off duty and are not as proficient as most would believe. I try to emphasis to the civilian students to seek out additional training from other qualified instructors whether they are civilian, LE or military.

I have completed various types of basic and advanced firearms classes throughout my career however the most significant classes were not about shooting but mindset and situational awareness/observation. I attended LTC Grossman's seminar in 2012 and an officer safety/survival class geared toward indicators that people may give that they are armed and or possibly involved in some type of suspicious/criminal activity. This lesson plan was written and taught by the NC State Highway Patrol and is titled Surviving the First Three Seconds.

[Joseph B.]

I think it depends on the type of skills you ar attempting to learn/develop. I also think if you try to lump anyone with X background into a "group" you are doing an injustice to many of the very competent instructors. Do I think military or law enforcement backgrounds carry over to CCW? Absolutely, however, it doesn't mean no other person can teach CCW, or that all MIL/LE instructors are the perfect fit for CCW classes. In a perfect world you could have a guy who spent 30+ years of civi CCW experience who, had been involved in several shooting successfully, who also competed in some kind of practical shooting sport, that had 20 years of instructional experience, with multiple students who had also been successful in shootings, etc, etc...

Reality is if that guy was around, he would offer an opinion worth listening to regarding MIL/LE instructors and how relevant or not they are to preparing a civi to use a CCW to defend their life (of course that would be debated to no end). Until then, its just guesstimating by many, to include myself. That's coming from a Mil guy, who has been carrying concealed since well before I joined.

Outside of this, I can only say that if I was having to put my life in someones hands, a combat (as in pulled the trigger on someone, taken life) experienced military veteran would be my first choice. But that's probably a bit biased on my part. $.02

[LtDave]

A relative told me that less than 10% of his department ever carry, probably less than 5% of those carry all the time.

That was my experience as well. 10% at most. And that was in SoCal where no one other than LE can legally carry since permits were unobtanium.

Another observation is that detectives often do run into the same situations that private citizens do. I walked into a bank robbery in progress while doing an unrelated follow up investigation. Luckily it was with a note instead of a takeover. One of my detectives was the recipient of an attempted carjacking by a knife wielding perp whose criminal carreer was cut short by the rule one violation.

Lots of LE guys won't be great gun fighters, but any of them who spent any time doing actual police work will be excellent at reading body language and dealing with uncooperative, potentially violent people.

[1986s4]

"Lots of LE guys won't be great gun fighters, but any of them who spent any time doing actual police work will be excellent at reading body language and dealing with uncooperative, potentially violent people. " LT Dave.

This is the training that I would really like, carrying or not, potentially very useful.

[Chuck Haggard]

"Lots of LE guys won't be great gun fighters, but any of them who spent any time doing actual police work will be excellent at reading body language and dealing with uncooperative, potentially violent people. " LT Dave.

This is the training that I would really like, carrying or not, potentially very useful.

MUC you need, or even better ECQC

[BaiHu]

MUC you need, or even better ECQC

Second that one.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Alaskapopo]

I just wanted to +1 this but also point out that it has to be taken in context. A guy whose only concern is drawing from a race rig to hit a target with a guaranteed-safe backstop and whose greatest penalty for a "deadly" mistake will be losing a match may have different priorities when choosing what techniques (and gear) he uses and recommends.

Does that mean he's got nothing worth learning? No. Just understand what he's teaching in his context. Not everything that works best in a game is best in a fight.

This exact same contextual analysis applies to LE, MIL, CCW, or any other experience & training. A fantastic example is the difference between what instructors teach in terms of "lone man" room clearing. Some actually have a system built around the lone defender, Southnarc's AMIS being the best well known around here. More commonly, instructors adapt institutionalized team tactics by teaching you what the point man should do plus some "check six!" thrown in for good measure. (note that both sets of instructors have cool sounding LE or MIL credentials, but only some of them are teaching to the proper context)



There are plenty of ways to minimize moronity as long as you're willing to accept that morons tend to pay well and you're giving up that revenue stream. I'm a perfect example of how easy it is not to have a "level 1" type class, teach regularly, and not deal with as many morons.



Is that Tom? I've taught at some of the same IALEFI conferences he has and have been to his advanced carbine class. He's an incredible instructor and is totally wasted staying close to home instead of hitting the national circuit. SLG and I tried to explain it to him over dinner one night but he seemed happy doing the work/family thing instead of living the excitement of airport security checks and random unfamiliar shooting facilities.



... but then you list:



And I'd suggest that no one from any unit, agency, or walk of life is truly world class at all of those things, especially when it comes to having an ability to communicate and transfer skill to another person.



Some do, some don't. There are more than a few guys on the circuit who do quite the opposite, attempting to give their students the look & feel of a "high speed SPECOPS ninja" training experience for a couple of days. Bringing this back to the first post I quoted above, an instructor who shows up with a retention drop rig to teach from, then takes it off and doesn't carry a gun (or sticks a j-frame in his pocket) doesn't understand me as an audience and probably hasn't instructed "accordingly."

But -- just like the competition instructor who doesn't carry -- that doesn't mean he didn't cover good stuff that I can use. LE/MIL guys are far more likely to have received proper training on combat-related stress management (pre-, during, and post-event), and are far more likely to have personal experiences to which they can relate that training, than someone who hasn't had a career like that. They probably have a far better understanding of fight chaos and how much more multidimensional a life-or-death shooting is likely to be than any range exercise can simulate. Etc.

Put another way, if not for the training I've had from LE/MIL guys, I don't think I'd even understand the "context" issue to begin with. The fact that it's taught me there are differences between their context and mine doesn't change that.

I think that it depends on what you want from the instructor. If I want the best possible instructor on how to actually shoot and manipulate the weapon I want a grand master world class shooter. If I want to learn good tactics to use then I want a former military or leo guy with lots of experience in that area. I also want training pertaining to what I need. Frankly at the level I am in my shooting ability its hard to pick a worth while training class. Not saying the instructors out there are not great but generally you end up going to a class and its just review with a lot of shooting. Frankly I can do that on my own time a lot cheaper. Plus the instructor is paying more attention to the students who are struggling so that means the shooters with a solid base get even less bang for their buck. To really learn something earth shattering it takes money for one on one instruction or very small class sizes.

I think all new shooters should get some solid training it creates a solid base from which they can work. I personally have progressed a lot once I started shooting competitively. It pushed me to get out of my comfort zones and the friendly competition of wanting to beat your buddies has made it fun and challenging. I would much rather spend money to attend a major three gun match than to attend a class.
Pat