Not in this thread or at the linked column, though?Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham
(Truthfully, I'm only personally aware of one class that I'd consider that falls into that category myself. But it definitely did.)
Not in this thread or at the linked column, though?
(Truthfully, I'm only personally aware of one class that I'd consider that falls into that category myself. But it definitely did.)
It might be over simplified, but I set goals, see if they're met, and what resources were required to meet them.
Keeping my goals multi-dimensional helps get more value out of courses. Some stuff is taken away for me the user. Some stuff is for instructional/curriculum development. I listen for what and how things are taught, progression through tasks, and how others are taking it in. There's also info for the larger knowledge base. I take a lot of notes, and refer to them often after class.
I also research instructors, particular course offerings, and curricula in advance whenever possible. I don't take part in the homoerotic hero worship, don't want to get my picture taken with personality X, and don't want to hear war stories. I don't consider round counts unless they are abnormally low or high.
The fastest way to decrease value for me is waste time, and I'm hard on that in evaluations. While certain variables can complicate time management, the last thing I want to hear is "we'll get a late start tomorrow" or "we'll try and get you out early." I pay, or someone has paid on my behalf, and I'll be here every minute you have something to teach.
Strategos distinguishes themselves in this way, making clear that they "teach to the objectives, not to the clock." For this and other reasons, they also tend to be a leader in value overall.
My criteria is sort of simple: a) did I learn something; and b) did it help me improve.
For me the classes that hold the most "value" to me are the ones where I left after having an "ah ha" moment or left with something "new". New doesn't necessarily equal a new skill either. It could mean a skill taught by the masses but in a way that I finally "got it".
Referring to the OP:
I've heard numerous individuals over the years complain about classes where the rount count was high, and where a round count any more than maybe 400/day equaled "hosing the berm". I've heard this assertion over and over from both certain instructors and their students. Whenever I'd asked for clarification, both the instructors and students who'd claimed this would drop the name of an instructor that neither had ever trained with personally. But yet they seemed to "know".One of the few complaints I have heard is from people who seem to judge a class by the amount of actual ammo expended
Right, and in the OP I said that "One of the few complaints I have heard is from people who seem to judge a class by the amount of actual ammo expended..."
I'm not seeing the connection between me saying that I heard people say they didn't shoot as much as they wanted to and some other person I don't know where complaining about berm hosing? You lost me.
I can take a bunch of ammo to the range and shoot it all at paper/steel without paying somebody to supervise me.
If paying for a class, I want someone teaching me how to actually improve. If that is accomplished with a low round count then so be it.
Jay,
My apologies; I guess I'm misstating my question.
As a firearms trainer yourself, how do you handle the balance of competing factors for time in a class setting? Shooting vs. Learning, or How vs. Why, or... I'm having a hard time finding the right words myself, which was why I linked to Awerbuck's column.
The one particular experience it ties back to with me was a pistol/carbine class with him where the actual number of rounds fired was probably negatively impacted by some gear problems one or two guys had, as well as some safety-related "This is why things are done this way" school-circle-type talks.
In light of that, a couple of the guys in the class were like "Man, we're only going to shoot X number of rounds, but last year with Mr. XYZ, we shot Z number of rounds!" and this made me think that, you know, that was an odd yardstick to measure the class by, so this column had some relevance for me. I mean, I felt like I'd learned something even from watching and listening to him fixing other people's problems. That's why I wanted to float it here, to see what other people thought.
I have taken carbine classes from a variety of industry recognized professionals. The most useful carbine class for me was Louis'. We "only" fired ~600 rounds which many would find low in a three-day class but those rounds had to be perfect. I was absolutely exhausted by the time I was done.
I don't think that the only way to ingrain something is to shoot a lot. At a mechanical/neurological level you are better off practicing fewer times perfectly than a lot of times with slop and error. I'm not saying you can't do high round count classes well, but the instructor has to really make sure everyone is doing it practically perfectly. Given the general decline in student quality I seem to see, this can be very hard to do.
No two, three, or five day class is going to make you subconsciously competent. That level of competency takes lots of reps OVER TIME to achieve. You are literally rewiring your brain and those changes are not instantaneous.
I like the analogy that Bruce Gray used. He stated that he was not taking us to any worthy destination in two days. Rather, he was giving us a road map and making sure we were headed the right way while he was watching us for the two days. It was ultimately up to us to follow the map, using what he taught us, to take ourselves to the desired destination.
- It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
- If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
- "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG
I attend classes to learn what I'm doing wrong, how to correct what I'm doing wrong, what I'm doing right, how to get faster at what I'm doing right, and drills/skills to take home to reinforce all of the above. Sometimes it's round count dependent, some times it's not. I've had both low and high round count classes that I've had AHA moments and some that didn't sink in for months afterward. But I've taken something from all of them.
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