Page 1 of 20 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 193

Thread: Mission Drives the Gear Train - Home Defense Carbine

  1. #1
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA

    Mission Drives the Gear Train - Home Defense Carbine

    The handgun is convenient and easy to conceal.

    The carbine is more effective but heightens profile.

    A carbine is impractical for most circumstances, but for home defense it is the preferred choice if available. It can be practical for some civilians to keep a carbine in their personal vehicle but this may not be viable in many cases.


    What might an optimized defensive carbine for the armed citizen look like?


    The likely engagement envelope for this weapon would be inside a residential structure, in low light conditions, to be used against close range threats – possibly multiple but no more than a handful.

    The armed citizen will most likely have been awakened out of a sleep (groggy) and will be wearing minimal clothing, no gloves, no earpro, no eyepro, and no support gear.

    The weapon should be set up to “grab and go”, i.e. an extra magazine mounted to the gun, a light mounted to gun, the optical sight (if used) turned on, BUIS deployed. This weapon should be for the infamous “bump in the night”, ready for immediate deployment.

    Extreme precision is not required; reliability is a more important attribute.

    Magnified optics are not desirable due to the nature of the ranges involved.

    The weapon should have compact overall dimensions to aid in maneuvering inside the home.

    The lightest possible weight (KISS/superlight, etc.) is not necessarily a requirement, though weight savings is always desirable if performance is relatively unaffected.

    A sling may not be absolutely necessary in a purely reactive situation or in a static defense, but it is a wise accessory when the aforementioned scenarios move beyond the initial encounter. A QD sling is a good option rolled up beside carbine, as is keeping the sling stowed on the carbine.

    A suppressor is a good option if overall compactness and balance is not sacrificed.

    Ammunition selection should be proven effective against humans yet reduce the probability of interior/exterior wall penetration.

    The weapon is likely to be left in Condition Three (cocked on safe, empty chamber, magazine inserted).

    Using the above criteria as a guide, an optimized defensive carbine for the armed citizen may look something like this:

    • barrel length 10″ to 12.5″

    • mil-spec “NATO” chamber and M4 feed ramps

    • 1/8 or 1/7 twist rate

    • fixed compact or adjustable length stock

    • 20 round magazines

    • 75 gr Hornady OTM, 77 gr Nosler OTM, or 77 gr SMK OTM ammunition

    • dedicated weapon light (examples: SF X300, M300A Scout, Insight WX150 LED, Streamlight TLR)

    • compact, lightweight suppressor (examples: SF Mini, Gemtech TREK, AAC RANGER 2)

    • lightweight rail, preferably partially enclosing suppressor and/or mounting a handstop to protect from burns

    • Boonie Packer Redi-Mag (or BFG Redi-Mod)

    • fixed front sight and fixed or deployed folding rear sight

    • optical sight (examples: Aimpoint Micro T-1, EOTech XPS) or visible laser (example: Insight AN/PEQ-5 CVL)

    • quick deploying two point sling (VCAS w/QD mounts, VTAC-PS Attachment Sling)


    Magazines are a failure point for semi-automatic firearms, and historically they have certainly been a failure point for AR-15s. In my scenario I am using 20 round magazines, so probably we are talking about 36 total rounds on the weapon. IMO it's a lot more realistic that the typical home owner may have to conduct remedial action or a reload than it is to suggest that they'd be armed with a secondary weapon to transition to.

    I personally recommend the Aimpoint Micro, but I didn't want to play favorites in what I wrote above. There are very compelling reasons to use a 30mm Aimpoint as well.

    If bullets start flying inside your own house, odds are high that you will experience the physiological phenomenon of audio exclusion - however short barrel 5.56mm guns are still loud and blasty. A bad guy is probably going to armed with a handgun and will be (hopefully) at least a couple of yards away, so I don't think hearing loss from an assailant's firearm would be a factor. Anyway, you still have the ears of your own family to try and protect. As I stated above, a suppressor is a good option if overall compactness and balance is not sacrificed.

    The final layout of the weapon is not nearly as important as the process which determines it.

    When one clearly defines one’s mission (whatever that may be), subsequent gear and training questions usually fall into place.

    People need to make realistic, informed determinations of their needs and suit their gear (to include weapons) and their training accordingly.

    The intent of my post is not to advocate for the carbine for home defense. It is instead an example of a methodology if you've made the determination that a carbine is the right tool. It is made in a vacuum, with out consideration of local laws or attitudes of juries. It is, as stated, what an optimized defensive carbine for the armed citizen might look like.



    ~ Jay C

    edited to add: Implied in the above is the necessary training and practice in order to employ the carbine effectively in an indoor environment. No one suggests not "honing the real weapon in the system".

    Regarding those who may suggest a fixation on the gun and "stuff" that you bolt to it: once again mission should drive the gear train. If you had a mission of fighting inside a structure and you were presented with two weapons:

    M16A2
    Mk18

    Which would you choose?

    You don't have to answer that. Point being, people need to make a realistic, informed determination of their needs and suit their gear (to include weapons) and their training accordingly.


    The above is not "The Law as Told By Jay"; it is simply an expression of some opinions that I've formed through my training and experience with several very good instructors. Please feel free to discuss and disagree!
    Last edited by Jay Cunningham; 03-02-2011 at 07:41 AM.

  2. #2
    For the home D setup I view weight as a non-issue. You are not going to hump, run or carry it for extended periods. As long as you are not swining around a 15lb stick you should be fine.

    Why do you advocate 20rders? You said you carry 2, 20rders downloaded to 36rds. Why not just carry 1, 30rder with 30rds in it as it is meant? Nearly the same ammo capacity. If you desire 2 mags for malfunction purposes I can see that.

    PJ

  3. #3
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I agree that weight is generally a non-issue in a defensive role. However cutting weight without significantly increasing cost or reducing capability is always welcome, IMO.

    I am not advocating 20 rounders for everyone. I explained a reason for why they might be a good choice. A single 30 round magazine is a good choice as long as you can reason out the "why". For me, I like the 20s for weight savings and reducing the overall profile of the gun. Due to the nature of the the postulated threat I figure the total ammo trade-off is acceptable. I believe I did mention above having two mags for malfunction purposes, and also because I believe a reload is more realistic than an individual being armed with a secondary. So if I'm going to carry two mags on the gun (I am) I think 60 total rounds is a bit of overkill, so I opt for two 20 rounders.

    However, the individual needs to make a realistic assessment of their own situation.
    Last edited by Jay Cunningham; 02-25-2011 at 08:11 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    I agree that weight is generally a non-issue in a defensive role. However cutting weight without significantly increasing cost or reducing capability is always welcome, IMO..
    Absolutley. However IMHO I feel some pursue super light builds just to make them light and loose sight of function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    I am not advocating 20 rounders for everyone. I explained a reason for why they might be a good choice. A single 30 round magazine is a good choice as long as you can reason out the "why". For me, I like the 20s for weight savings and reducing the overall profile of the gun. Due to the nature of the the postulated threat I figure the total ammo trade-off is acceptable. I believe I did mention above having two mags for malfunction purposes, and also because I believe a reload is more realistic than an individual being armed with a secondary. So if I'm going to carry two mags on the gun (I am) I think 60 total rounds is a bit of overkill, so I opt for two 20 rounders.

    However, the individual needs to make a realistic assessment of their own situation.
    Myself and some others have found problems with 20rders and was wondering if you have encountered these problems as well?

    For me a single, PROVEN, magazine of 30rds in the gun is what I would ever call on if needed. I can understand your desire to slim the profile of the gun but IMHO a 20rder is not going to increase my profile any more than a 30rder. I have worked 20 and 30rd mags in a variety of tight places and have never had either be a snag hazard.

    Just my experience.


    PJ

  5. #5
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Quote Originally Posted by vmi-mo View Post
    Absolutley. However IMHO I feel some pursue super light builds just to make them light and loose sight of function.
    Yep. Some do, and unfortunately they weren't really considering their needs - they were trying out some fad or copying someone else for no apparent reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by vmi-mo View Post
    Myself and some others have found problems with 20rders and was wondering if you have encountered these problems as well?
    I use only NHMTG 20 round magazines and have found them to be reliable. Then again, I am not in the operational environment that you and some others may find yourselves in, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by vmi-mo View Post
    For me a single, PROVEN, magazine of 30rds in the gun is what I would ever call on if needed. I can understand your desire to slim the profile of the gun but IMHO a 20rder is not going to increase my profile any more than a 30rder. I have worked 20 and 30rd mags in a variety of tight places and have never had either be a snag hazard.
    And that is a perfectly viable option which you've thought out and which jives with your personal experience. As I said I *will* be carrying two magazines on the gun, and think two 30 rounders is a bit much so I'll personally go with the 20s - in this role.

    Thanks for bringing your experience into this discussion, I appreciate it.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    Yep. Some do, and unfortunately they weren't really considering their needs - they were trying out some fad or copying someone else for no apparent reason.


    I use only NHMTG 20 round magazines and have found them to be reliable. Then again, I am not in the operational environment that you and some others may find yourselves in, either.


    And that is a perfectly viable option which you've thought out and which jives with your personal experience. As I said I *will* be carrying two magazines on the gun, and think two 30 rounders is a bit much so I'll personally go with the 20s - in this role.

    Thanks for bringing your experience into this discussion, I appreciate it.
    My experience has been with PMAG 20rders. Never in an operational environment either.

    I agree with you. As long as you see the need/role for what you are using, then rock on. My experience is different from yours and that shapes our outlook.


    PJ

  7. #7
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Quote Originally Posted by vmi-mo View Post
    My experience has been with PMAG 20rders. Never in an operational environment either.
    I agree that the 20 round PMAGs have reliability issues and I would not recommend them.

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    CA
    If a SF mini can, isn't an option (can't afford, or ban in commie states like mine!), people should really consider keeping a pair of electronic ear pro on their night stand. Shooting a rifle in enclosed spaces would make for some bad times on your hearing! Electronic ear pro would safe guard your hearing, and may assist in situational awareness as they enhance ambient noises.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat.c View Post
    If a SF mini can, isn't an option (can't afford, or ban in commie states like mine!), people should really consider keeping a pair of electronic ear pro on their night stand. Shooting a rifle in enclosed spaces would make for some bad times on your hearing! Electronic ear pro would safe guard your hearing, and may assist in situational awareness as they enhance ambient noises.
    Be careful with that. Some electronic earmuffs are terrible at giving you direction with sound when indoors.



    PJ

  10. #10
    How would parents have a defensive carbine ready to go quickly whilst ensuring it is secured from small hands?

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •