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Thread: Mission Drives the Gear Train - Home Defense Carbine

  1. #71
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    As posted before, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice for home defense.

    From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. The new Federal #1 buckshot, 15 pellet, 1100 fps "Flight Control" load (LE132-1B) offers IDEAL terminal performance for LE and self-defense use and is the best option for those who need to use shot shells for such purposes. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons. Below are the wound profiles of unobstructed shots at 3 meters, comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:



    Note that the M1 carbine, 16” barrel AR15, 18” barrel shotgun with a “youth” stock, and 16” barrel lever action carbine are all approximately the same length and offer the equivalent ease of maneuvering, so bickering about weapon size is a somewhat moot point when comparing weapons of this type. From an ergonomic and weapon manipulation standpoint, the AR15 is far superior to the other weapons, followed by the M1 carbine, and then distantly trailed by the shotgun and lever action carbine. Likewise, the AR15 is the most modular and allows the easiest mounting of various accessories. Unfortunately, AR15’s are also usually more expensive. In addition, in some locales, AR15’s are more highly regulated and/or feared than other less “scary” looking weapons; in those areas, an AR15’s “military” appearance may prejudice some LE officers who respond to a lethal force incident, as well as the DA and jury… If living in a state with asinine legal restrictions on firearms regulations or a liberal “weapon phobic” region, a PC, plain-jane appearing shoulder fired weapon that does not scare the metaphorical sheep might be prudent…

    In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun with #1 buckshot would be my first choice. However, if there are multiple criminals assaulting me, or in a time of domestic unrest and upheaval with potentially large crowds of hostile individuals roaming about, or in situations that would require movement outdoors, then I would far prefer a magazine fed shoulder fired weapon capable of greater range, faster reloading, and greater ammunition capacity than a shotgun.

    Finally, there is the matter of weapon familiarity and training. In 20+ years of military and LE use, I have fired far more rounds of ammunition, had more training with, and greater experience using AR15 based rifles than any other type of shoulder fired weapon. And while I have also trained with and used other shoulder fired weapons including MP5’s, M14’s/M1A’s, shotguns, bolt guns, and the odd M1 Garand, M1 carbine, and lever gun—baring legal restrictions, in a chaotic, stress filled situation, I would feel most comfortable and confident using an AR15 based weapon due to my previous training and experience.

  2. #72
    Member Al T.'s Avatar
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    Good post Doc.

    Jay, you don't seem to be worried about using a suppressor in a self defense situation. For me and in my location, I would be. Got any thoughts about that?

    For folks wondering about the 5.56 (with proper ammo) being less penetrative, here's (IMHO) the best single post on the net about that subject:

    http://230grain.com/showthread.php?6...st-%28Adpat%29

  3. #73
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al T. View Post
    Good post Doc.

    Jay, you don't seem to be worried about using a suppressor in a self defense situation. For me and in my location, I would be. Got any thoughts about that?
    Before I answer, let me ask you: why would you be?

  4. #74
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    Al T. -- The linked test is pretty worthless, as it fails to show the damage potential of the projectiles after they got through the wall.

    As long as a self-defense shooting was appropriate for the circumstances (ie. a good shoot) and the suppressor a legal, properly papered device, then a good attorney would be able to clearly articulate the benefits and prudence of using a suppressor for self-defense purposes--there should be NO downside.

  5. #75
    Member Al T.'s Avatar
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    Jay, Doc, around here we have had some terrible prosecutions for "good shoots". Next county over gets it, mine does not.

    My surprise at your suppressor generated the question. Here, I take it seriously enough that my ARs are in the safe and the household long guns are shotguns.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    Which pistols are being carried loaded with the safety off?
    I'm jumpin in.

    Everything except a 1911

  7. #77
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Glocks for instance have three passive safeties and they are all engaged when the gun is being carried with a round in the chamber. Because you choose not to recognize a passive safety as a safety does not mean that it's not a safety.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCKMASTER View Post
    FWIW I have been in LE for over two decades and currently the chief firearms instructor for a state LE agency that has 1800+ sworn members so I have a grasp as to what goes on in the LE community. The mentality I was talking about is highlighted above. You don't mess with a safety you manipulate into the firing position. If handling a loaded weapon it should be on safe unless you're acquiring or have acquired a target. There have been lots of LEO's and others ( bad guys and innocent) that have been unintentionally shot because the safety was not being used when the weapon was being handled or slung. I suppose thats the guns fault and not the operator, or bad practice of said traing... We carry our 820 AR's in the cruiser safe mode ie: bolt forward on a empty chamber and on safe and it's never been a problem.

    Of course YMMV......it sure does
    I thought this thread was HD carbine... You "cops" have politics, lawsuits, jobs, rep and, whatever else you have to worry about. Hence the reason for empty chamber, safety on. Oh yeah and, 10 other guys backing you up so, youve got a minute to play with safeties.

    Its a shame everyones sooo scared of their triggers these days.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmi-mo View Post
    I personally feel the safety should be on unless you are about to engage a target. As Glockmaster stated it helps to reduce the risk of a negligent discharge.

    PJ
    Since hes the "glockmaster" what is the safety on his glock?? Oh yeah, it doesnt have any = his trigger finger= should apply to his AR as well. Just pretend the AR doesnt have any safeties either. But it does so, everyone is all safety ON this, safety ON that. WHY??

    SAFETIES CAN FAIL, dont rely on them for your sloppy (not you, just in general) firearm handling techniques. Safeties on, I'm good. Yeah, ok.

    train of thought lost, damnit

  10. #80
    Site Supporter LOKNLOD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P30shtr View Post
    Since hes the "glockmaster" what is the safety on his glock?? Oh yeah, it doesnt have any = his trigger finger= should apply to his AR as well. Just pretend the AR doesnt have any safeties either. But it does so, everyone is all safety ON this, safety ON that. WHY??

    SAFETIES CAN FAIL, dont rely on them for your sloppy (not you, just in general) firearm handling techniques. Safeties on, I'm good. Yeah, ok.

    train of thought lost, damnit
    His Glock benefits from spending the vast majority of the time it's not actively spitting pieces of plated lead downrange in a holster than protects the trigger. If you had to carry the Glock on a sling around your neck potentially slapping on your other gear, would you want it to have a safety? Besides, flicking the safety off on an AR as it comes up from the ready adds no time or difficulty. It's not an excuse or allowance to be sloppy with the trigger finger.

    Claiming that one will get lax in trigger discipline because of a manual safety is a little like saying you'll drive wrecklessly because your car has modern airbags and seatbelts. If you're not capable of maintaining that discipline with the safety, why would you be able to maintain the discipline without the safety? It's a bit of a non-sequitur to me.
    --Josh
    “Formerly we suffered from crimes; now we suffer from laws.” - Tacitus.

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