When to Decock/Safe a Pistol

[Dagga Boy]

Nyeti, so I understand your analysis, you believe the value of not having to decock trumps any shootability advantage of a DA/SA trigger?

If you de-cock every time you come off an assessed target, I don't think there is a shoot-ability advantage. Even in competition, I still de-cocked every time I was slightly off target in my later competition shooting days. I could do well in matches, but not remotely as well as the days when I just got through 1 DA trigger press and then ran the gun like a un-cocked S/A for the rest of the drill, test, or stage.

Also keep in mind, that I am not talking about the top of the shooting food chain folks here. I am talking in general. I will also contend that I have watched some of the toughest hard as wood pecker lips bad ass's who are very used to dealing with bad guy street level induced violence and chaos lose their situational awareness and stress/multi-tasking control after a shooting (FAR more of an issue than "during"). I have to ask, "how well do you think even a top shooter who is not used to street chaos and violence going to react"? The fact is, we don't know, but I would bet on them not doing "great" on their first one no matter what their "rating" is at the sport side. Wanna know who does "great" at these things....the VERY few people who have done it multiple times with good performance and solid, well documented on demand performance (not the "luck" shooting guys). They usually get good at after the first one.

[ToddG]

FWIW, my decock/safety policy is that if I dismount the gun from my shooting position, I ordinarily decock (or put the gun on safe).

The only exception I can think of -- and it's completely unconscious -- is when moving around a narrow barricade like these:



Basically, I would still be engaging the next target(s) but the barricade creates a fraction of a second's worth of vision barrier. The gun dismounts and the finger comes off the trigger but I don't put the safety on.

Like Darryl, I believe having a deeply ingrained subconscious decock/safe policy is important. Yesterday at the range I took a pretty serious tumble, tripping over some target stands while shooting on the move. I ended up sprawled out, feet and head on the ground, hips propped up by the stack of stands. As I rebooted the brain and started to get back up, I discovered my safety was on. I have absolutely no recollection of even the tiniest iota of thought about my thumb safety, but when my brain caught back up to reality it was on and my thumb was atop it ready to shoot.

[Dagga Boy]

FWIW, my decock/safety policy is that if I dismount the gun from my shooting position, I ordinarily decock (or put the gun on safe).

The only exception I can think of -- and it's completely unconscious -- is when moving around a narrow barricade like these:



Basically, I would still be engaging the next target(s) but the barricade creates a fraction of a second's worth of vision barrier. The gun dismounts and the finger comes off the trigger but I don't put the safety on.

Like Darryl, I believe having a deeply ingrained subconscious decock/safe policy is important. Yesterday at the range I took a pretty serious tumble, tripping over some target stands while shooting on the move. I ended up sprawled out, feet and head on the ground, hips propped up by the stack of stands. As I rebooted the brain and started to get back up, I discovered my safety was on. I have absolutely no recollection of even the tiniest iota of thought about my thumb safety, but when my brain caught back up to reality it was on and my thumb was atop it ready to shoot.

I got to the point where I would have sub-consciously de-cocked on that barricade. Even if I told myself not to. I found that out during the county Top GUn match where I was de-cocking even when I had "planned" not to. It was also when I realized that I was really "there" on running a DA/SA gun, as I was shooting so many DA to SA transitions that it was simply the normal way the gun worked. The USP was not as ergonomic for me to de-cock (I use and teach a weird grip on the SIG to enhance the de-cocking efficiency) so I needed to change some stuff up and stay far more on top of the de-cocking.

Tpd223, I have found that the Glock 3.5 with the NY spring is my next best set up using armorer installed parts.

[TCinVA]

If you de-cock every time you come off an assessed target, I don't think there is a shoot-ability advantage. Even in competition, I still de-cocked every time I was slightly off target in my later competition shooting days. I could do well in matches, but not remotely as well as the days when I just got through 1 DA trigger press and then ran the gun like a un-cocked S/A for the rest of the drill, test, or stage.

Also keep in mind, that I am not talking about the top of the shooting food chain folks here. I am talking in general. I will also contend that I have watched some of the toughest hard as wood pecker lips bad ass's who are very used to dealing with bad guy street level induced violence and chaos lose their situational awareness and stress/multi-tasking control after a shooting (FAR more of an issue than "during"). I have to ask, "how well do you think even a top shooter who is not used to street chaos and violence going to react"? The fact is, we don't know, but I would bet on them not doing "great" on their first one no matter what their "rating" is at the sport side. Wanna know who does "great" at these things....the VERY few people who have done it multiple times with good performance and solid, well documented on demand performance (not the "luck" shooting guys). They usually get good at after the first one.

The first time I showed up at formal handgun training that was worth something was with a Beretta 92 Elite I, a G variant. When doing a stress course I de-cocked between every shooting position to move from one place to the other. Some wondered why I did that. I figured that moving around a gravel-covered obstacle course with a cocked handgun wasn't wise.

In the same class was a LE officer who was issued a DAO Sig semi-auto. She ran the same course, but tripped and fell. I distinctly remember seeing the gun jerk in her hand as she grasped it (including with his trigger finger on the trigger) out of sympathetic response. And, of course, the muzzle was not pointed in a safe direction. I could tell because I was actually looking down the barrel when this happened. I'm about 95% sure I was spared from a bullet wound by the length and weight of that Sig's trigger. Not long after that I watched someone narrowly miss their own foot trying to draw their 1911 under the mild stress of an audience and a timer.

When I did more advanced stuff with people who had considerable experience on the gunfighting side, decocking or using the safety of a weapon when moving (1911 or an AR, etc) was emphasized heavily.

Like Todd, when I was running a 1911 my safety was re-engaged anytime I was not actively on the trigger shooting. If the gun came down out of eye line the safety was re-applied. When doing basic room clearing some folks on the catwalk commented on the frequent, audible clicking of my 1911's safety as being unusual.

[JAD]

When doing basic room clearing some folks on the catwalk commented on the frequent, audible clicking of my 1911's safety as being unusual.

-- You were not at Thunder Ranch, then. When I ran the Terminator in Team Tactics my buddy and I sounded like we were training very clever dogs.

[Totem Polar]

In the same class was a LE officer who was issued a DAO Sig semi-auto. She ran the same course, but tripped and fell. I distinctly remember seeing the gun jerk in her hand as she grasped it (including with his trigger finger on the trigger) out of sympathetic response. And, of course, the muzzle was not pointed in a safe direction. I could tell because I was actually looking down the barrel when this happened. I'm about 95% sure I was spared from a bullet wound by the length and weight of that Sig's trigger...

FNG question, if you folks don't mind bearing with me. Do you recall if she was indexing before she fell, and her hand closed into the trigger guard when she tripped, or was she already there? Spooky story, regardless.

[LHS]

Granted, my experience is mainly with competition, but I decock when I'm not actively firing. That means when moving between cover (assuming I'm not shooting at something while doing so), while reloading behind cover, while assessing, and prior to holstering.

[ToddG]

while reloading behind cover

Specifically I assume you mean performing some kind "tactical/retention" reload... I wouldn't decock/safe to do a speed reload and you can't decock (and on many SA pistols, cannot go on-safe) with the slide locked back.

[LHS]

Specifically I assume you mean performing some kind "tactical/retention" reload... I wouldn't decock/safe to do a speed reload and you can't decock (and on many SA pistols, cannot go on-safe) with the slide locked back.

Correct.

[jetfire]

Wait, so if you guys were running a field course and had, say 5 yards of movement between positions, you all would safe/decock your guns while moving?

If we were in person, I'd have a very confused look on my face. Why would you do that?