Why I like the LEM as a "street trigger"

[LSP972]

TLG gets thru technique by only releasing the LEM trigger to slightly past reset.

Well... that's the way one is 'sposed to manipulate the LEM trigger. FWIW, I have done quite a bit of one-hand shooting (its an integral part of most LE training, both strong hand and off hand) with everything from 12-15 pound L frame "floating hand" triggers to 2.5 pound 1911 triggers. I don't recall any problems getting the sear to trip on any of them, with either hand.

Thanks for the explanation. If I'm tracking that technique correctly, it pretty much goes against everything I know/have learned about trigger control. Its no wonder you don't like the LEM.

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[Dagga Boy]

Same way I shoot as well. The technique GJM is talking about is used by some of the highest level shooters. It works when you have a very high level of consistency on the entire equation. Most mortal's don't have either the practice time, ammunition budget, or singular focus to make this work. For those who do....it is obviously very viable.

Because of my focus and who I focus on training, this is not the way I teach it. We emphasize total control on the trigger as a priority because it is the single thing that we can have total control of (grip, stance, sights, can all be heavily affected and degraded by circumstance).

[JodyH]

I dislike trigger manipulation techniques that don't carry over well to all trigger types.
The "flip and press" and "catch the reset" are two that come to mind.
I'm more of a continuous motion, revolver style trigger manipulation fan myself.
Smooth press, smooth release to well past reset and my finger never loses contact with the trigger.
It works perfectly on my LEM, Kahr DAO and S&W J-frame DA (my "Big 3" CCW/HD guns).
I've also used it on Glocks, 1911's and SA/DA pistols with great results.

When it comes to "splits" I'm good with my .24's, mainly because a few years ago I smashed my trigger finger and the resulting scar tissue has pretty much governed my finger at that speed.
It does me no good to chase anything faster because my finger only works at a .24 pace.
The good part is I get .24's with everything I shoot, LEM, DAO, revolver, Glock, 1911, PPQ...
It makes predicting my times on drills a lot easier.

As far as the original topic... ditto to all the posts I agree with, boo to all the posts I don't.
I'm a LEM and DAO trigger fan.

[GJM]

Well... that's the way one is 'sposed to manipulate the LEM trigger. FWIW, I have done quite a bit of one-hand shooting (its an integral part of most LE training, both strong hand and off hand) with everything from 12-15 pound L frame "floating hand" triggers to 2.5 pound 1911 triggers. I don't recall any problems getting the sear to trip on any of them, with either hand.

Thanks for the explanation. If I'm tracking that technique correctly, it pretty much goes against everything I know/have learned about trigger control. Its no wonder you don't like the LEM.

.

There are two arguments for flip and press. First, from Bill Rogers, if you release to reset, inevitably you will not release far enough, potentially under stress, and at some point have trigger freeze. This is especially so if you shoot different platforms, with different levels of reset. The second, from Leatham et al, is that flip and press allows you to shoot faster, for a given degree of accuracy. Some quick Google will yield you videos of TGO, and other GM's describing/demonstrating this.

I flip and press because I believe it is faster, from a pure shooting perspective, and because I shoot everything from a DA Smith .44 on on the long reset end of the spectrum, to a DA/SA Sig with a SRT. Since DA/SA gives me an initial DA press that I prefer to LEM for the draw, and SA capability that is shorter and lighter than LEM for follow-up shots, without requiring that I discontinue "flip and press," LEM isn't my choice.

[Duces Tecum]

Well since it is established to be a fine motor skill, I have a suggestion, that I heard a So Cal PD did years ago in training, to protect DA shooters. Tie a lanyard from the pistol to your little Darryl for the first 500 rounds, associate that with decocking, and I am told you will never have a problem again.

Could that have been the West Hollywood station?

[Dagga Boy]

That was probably the West Hollywood station. <G>

That is LASD........ Besides, if I am whispering in your ear on the line, it is not anything that would get far in West Hollywood.

I have had more than one of my guys report that prior to, or during, a shooting they could hear me yelling at them in their head. Whatever works, I am down with as long as my folks are coming home unscathed and the crooks are leaving in an ambulance or the coroner's van.

[ToddG]

There are two arguments for flip and press. First, from Bill Rogers, if you release to reset, inevitably you will not release far enough, potentially under stress, and at some point have trigger freeze.

That isn't the only cause of trigger freeze but it's a valid concern. However, there is a happy medium between "riding the sear" and flinging your finger all the way off the trigger.

This is especially so if you shoot different platforms, with different levels of reset.

Cannot disagree with that at all. As I relayed previously, I've watched it bite other people in the butt. However, most of us can adapt our personal battery of defensive pistols to be similar enough in function that it becomes an easily avoidable problem.

The second, from Leatham et al, is that flip and press allows you to shoot faster, for a given degree of accuracy. Some quick Google will yield you videos of TGO, and other GM's describing/demonstrating this.

As Hackathorn, Vickers, and others have pointed out for years, a lot of this has to do with the ratio of trigger pull weight to pistol weight with some grip strength factored in for good measure. Lots of relatively gross finger movement that would cause havoc on a 5.5# trigger of a 1.5# Glock isn't an issue with a 2# trigger on a 2.5# 1911.

[Chuck Haggard]

Our last OIS was a prime example of why I prefer to err on the side of letting too much trigger out than risk not getting the reset under stress.

I have seen very few shootings in real life where a really fast split was important, not that it isn't a good mechanics check to be able to do.

[entropy]

I've posted here little, lurked a long time, and gained tons of knowledge.

Came back again for a visit and found this thread. Quite on spot.

I'm issued a HK USPc LEM (heavy variant) and have shot it fairly exclusively now for almost 10 years. For me, it's a "love/hate" kind of thing. It is by far the platform which I have the most experience. My first gun was finally replaced by the armorer after WELL in excess of 30K+ rounds. The only issues were firing pin breakages (2 until the new style was installed) and the same amount of Flat Spring failures. I'm on #2 now, with about 10K down the pipe and zero issues to date. My personal weapon is the same, sans the installation of the mid weight spring set up. To be honest, I could never tell the difference in actual use. It points naturally, and by now, the manipulation is instinctive.

That's the Love. The hate is a little more ambiguous.

It is by far, for me, the LEAST forgiving system to neglect of practice. If I don't religiously dry fire, live fire, and train...my performance quickly deteriorates. Whether it is the "stacking" that occurs during the press, the ergos of the entire package...I have not been able to figure out. I can pick up a DA/SA Sig after months, and within a mag or two, be back in form, maybe just lacking a bit on speed. Not so with the LEM. Lots of 7-8 o'clock hits an inch or two low. Yanking. Not concentrating on the press. I can set my calendar by it.

I have really grown to admire it's attributes though. And despite it all, it is my usual carry 90% of the time.


Thanks to all for your insight, ideas, and tips.

[Ed L]

Wow, the first post in this thread is worthy of an article.

I can see the advantages of the LEM--no manual safety to remember to disengage and no decocker to decock and a trigger, a single smooth trigger pull that isn't heavy like a D/A only Sig or Beretta, but provides with long travel to allow people more of a chance to catch themselves if they place a finger on it.

I could see it as a good thing to equip a police unit with--especially considering you will be having new recruits with varying levels of training and experience.

I can also see why people who are already accustomed to a different trigger would be hesitant to consider switching--especially in times when ammo is expensive and still hard to get. Many individual shooters will choose to stick to what they are accustomed to since they already shoot it better.