Why I like the LEM as a "street trigger"

[TCinVA]

If you de-cock every time you come off an assessed target, I don't think there is a shoot-ability advantage. Even in competition, I still de-cocked every time I was slightly off target in my later competition shooting days. I could do well in matches, but not remotely as well as the days when I just got through 1 DA trigger press and then ran the gun like a un-cocked S/A for the rest of the drill, test, or stage.

Also keep in mind, that I am not talking about the top of the shooting food chain folks here. I am talking in general. I will also contend that I have watched some of the toughest hard as wood pecker lips bad ass's who are very used to dealing with bad guy street level induced violence and chaos lose their situational awareness and stress/multi-tasking control after a shooting (FAR more of an issue than "during"). I have to ask, "how well do you think even a top shooter who is not used to street chaos and violence going to react"? The fact is, we don't know, but I would bet on them not doing "great" on their first one no matter what their "rating" is at the sport side. Wanna know who does "great" at these things....the VERY few people who have done it multiple times with good performance and solid, well documented on demand performance (not the "luck" shooting guys). They usually get good at after the first one.

The first time I showed up at formal handgun training that was worth something was with a Beretta 92 Elite I, a G variant. When doing a stress course I de-cocked between every shooting position to move from one place to the other. Some wondered why I did that. I figured that moving around a gravel-covered obstacle course with a cocked handgun wasn't wise.

In the same class was a LE officer who was issued a DAO Sig semi-auto. She ran the same course, but tripped and fell. I distinctly remember seeing the gun jerk in her hand as she grasped it (including with his trigger finger on the trigger) out of sympathetic response. And, of course, the muzzle was not pointed in a safe direction. I could tell because I was actually looking down the barrel when this happened. I'm about 95% sure I was spared from a bullet wound by the length and weight of that Sig's trigger. Not long after that I watched someone narrowly miss their own foot trying to draw their 1911 under the mild stress of an audience and a timer.

When I did more advanced stuff with people who had considerable experience on the gunfighting side, decocking or using the safety of a weapon when moving (1911 or an AR, etc) was emphasized heavily.

Like Todd, when I was running a 1911 my safety was re-engaged anytime I was not actively on the trigger shooting. If the gun came down out of eye line the safety was re-applied. When doing basic room clearing some folks on the catwalk commented on the frequent, audible clicking of my 1911's safety as being unusual.

[JAD]

When doing basic room clearing some folks on the catwalk commented on the frequent, audible clicking of my 1911's safety as being unusual.

-- You were not at Thunder Ranch, then. When I ran the Terminator in Team Tactics my buddy and I sounded like we were training very clever dogs.

[TCinVA]

...and while this is certainly a bizarre incident, it just goes to show what can happen in real life:

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/...reading-event/

TLDR version: SWAT cop is doing a public relations gig with kids. Apparently one of them manages to work a tiny finger inside the SWAT cop's holster and succeeds in pulling the trigger of the sidearm. Hits the officer in the leg, and scares the bejeezus out of a bunch of kids.

[Dagga Boy]

"Like Todd, when I was running a 1911 my safety was re-engaged anytime I was not actively on the trigger shooting. If the gun came down out of eye line the safety was re-applied. When doing basic room clearing some folks on the catwalk commented on the frequent, audible clicking of my 1911's safety as being unusual."

This is the way it should be, and I run both the mechanical safety of the 1911 and the de-cocker on various pistols the same way.

On the Lodi SWAT shooting with the child: My kid was born was during my Glock days. During the time from birth through most of elementary school I was generally carrying a Glock. The guns were always "Put up" and in a place she could not access. The "inside the house guns" were P7's for the main reason that a small child cannot fire them (of course on the internet a guy said that they could push the squeeze cocker against a table while perfectly holding the gun to cock it and fire it....so i will clarify that a child cannot "reasonably" fire it, but it can happen on the internet). There have been multiple cases of little kids shooting Glocks.......remember-"easy to shoot" and "Rattlesnakes".
I spent a significant amount of time working a very specialized VIP security detail at a elementary school. When the kids were in school I only carried HK45C's and a P7. The two HK45C's were both V1's. The one on my person was carried DA/SA, off safe, and the one off my body in my "bag o death and extra stuff" was carried with the mechanical safety on. The P7 was pocket carried as a back up (heel release). All the guns were as child resistant as I thought I could get them. I refused to carry a Glock in this environment.

[Savage Hands]

...and while this is certainly a bizarre incident, it just goes to show what can happen in real life:

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/...reading-event/

TLDR version: SWAT cop is doing a public relations gig with kids. Apparently one of them manages to work a tiny finger inside the SWAT cop's holster and succeeds in pulling the trigger of the sidearm. Hits the officer in the leg, and scares the bejeezus out of a bunch of kids.

Supposedly a Glock 22/35 and drop leg Safariland.

[CCT125US]

A quick note from the Hackathorn class:

While on the line, Hack had us at ready gun giving instructions. Listening, I realise a new mag is needed. As I insert the mag, the sound caused my electronic ear pro to cut out for a moment. I barely make out the "fire" command, and begin driving the sights into the target. About 6lbs into the pull I am aware that no one else is doing the same thing. (That's called a clue) Come to find out my ear pro cut off the words prepare to.......... big difference between fire, and prepare to fire. On a multi shot drill, it would have been mildly noticeable to the rest if I was the one dood shooting. I have long appreciated the long take up of the DA shot, but that moment drove the point home.

[ToddG]

I got to the point where I would have sub-consciously de-cocked on that barricade.

I believe this is worthy of its own thread and will make it so shortly.

edited to add: And it is so. Please direct all discussion of when to decock/safe a pistol to the new thread.

[GardoneVT]

In my completely inexperienced opinion,DA/SA guns are the best of the lot.

Now don't go reaching for the pitchforks just yet.My rationale behind that conclusion can be summed up thus.When starting out ,all of us,even the SMEs,were hazards looking for a place to happen.I know when I was starting out 3 years back just mastering the 4 rules was a mentally tough task.With time ,training,and practice I've reached the point where following those safety protocols is second nature.My hits have improved from minute of paper to being frustrated at single fliers at 40 feet.

For the shooter starting out with only the faintest grasp of the Four Commandments,a heavy trigger pull helps prevent an "oh bother" mistake from becoming a press headline-or an early funeral.As the newbie shoots more often,the DA pull not only gets easier but it also diagnoses form and trigger control issues a SA or striker fired gun may hide.A 1911 makes a novice feel great because it fires before the operators flinch can drag the piece off target.While the target is still hit where it needs to,as soon as the novice shoots something else Reality pays them a nasty visit.You can't "fool" a DA trigger like that.If your form sucks,you'll know immediately.I can say without risk of perjury that inside of 40 feet my DA hits are as accurate as my SA shots with my 92FS.

Now,the big drawback to DA/SA platforms are the ergonomics.Namely they must be SPOT ON for the best results.A DA pull is intolerant of bad form,no matter the reason.I can shoot a DA Beretta and DA P30 without dragging the piece off target.Why?Because I can place my trigger finger in a place where I can pull it straight back and still keep a good grip.I cannot do that with S&W semi autos -my fingers are too long to keep the frame straight during the press.It's not like striker fired guns where a G21 will feel the same as a G17 .


For people unable to find a DA/SA handgun which ergonomically fits then,the LEM and single action designs are worthy alternatives.

[JV_]

It's not like striker fired guns where a G21 will feel the same as a G17 .

Perhaps to you, but not to me. The G21 is far too big for my hands.

Trigger reach and ergos are still important in striker fired guns, so is good form.

[ToddG]

In my completely inexperienced opinion,DA/SA guns are the best of the lot.

The thing I liked about Darryl's post is that it wasn't "mine is best, everything else sucks." I think he did a very good job of spelling out the pros and cons of all the different options.

I could easily justify getting a DA/SA over a SAO, or a SFA over a LEM, or a LEM over any of them, or any of them over the LEM. They all have benefits and they all have weaknesses. Matching those up with your particular priorities and capabilities is the key. Some people will go to their graves believing a tuned Glock with a shortened, 2.5# trigger pull is "perfectly safe for street use." Some people will never accept the notion that speed of any kind matters in a fight. Some people will be terminally stupid and some stupid people will lead charmed, trouble-free lives.

And as George & others have pointed out, some of the differences we're talking about are pretty minute. Comparing the at-rest "safety" of a NY1/3.5 Glock and an LEM, for instance, is getting close to tallying how many cherubs can frolic on the pointy end of a thumbtack. But if that's a major priority for someone (the safety at rest, not the cherubs) then that minutia may be worth considering.