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Thread: Why I like the LEM as a "street trigger"

  1. #181
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNewbie View Post
    Dagga, have you shot the DAK much? I find it easier to shoot because the trigger pull seems more consistent throughout, vs the long pull with sudden wall of the LEM.

    With time and practice I might change my mind, and I am certainly an outlier in this regard.
    I'm certainly not Dagga Boy, and I'd certainly defer to his experience and analysis, but I did run a P229 DAK (in both .40 and .357 SIG) fairly extensively for a year or so several years back. Due to it's mechanical set-up, to take full advantage of it's lightened and lightest triggerpull, you need to consciously let the trigger go more forward on reset; a shorter reset provides a heavier triggerpull. My thought back then was that even though I had a "earlier" DAK P229, with it's lighter triggerpull weight than subsequent production did, for me the DAK juice wasn't worth the squeeze. My thought was that to truly and effectively reap the benefits of a DAK because of its unique characteristics, you really needed to make your DAK gun almost an exclusive choice for use.

    The LEM has, in my opinion, extrinsically an equally effective (and lighter) triggerpull weight and short reset, and is much more of a "plug and play" situation than anything with DAK. Usually I find that SIG's possess better triggerpull characteristics than HKs; I do not find that to be true with the out-of-the-box excellent triggerpulls on both my HK VP40 and P30L light LEM, and the LEM does not seem to present difficulties in transitioning from it to other action systems. YMMV. And, if a DAK gun is your one-and-only, transitioning comparisons might be irrelevant.

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 10-07-2017 at 04:16 PM.

  2. #182
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    JonInWA,

    The reason I remembered your story was a similar realization on my part. I was taking the Keepers AIWB class last year with a J frame and while I did OK with the reloads (combination of Safariland and 4 at a time out of speedstrips) it was outside during the day and I really started to notice how much time I was spending looking at the revolver while reloading. At night or in low light might have turned pretty ugly.

    I really enjoy shooting revolvers but have a hard time justifying one as a carry gun. Even with the extra required effort you are noticing I think the bottom feeder makes more sense. I wish the P250 had worked out, conceptually that is just about my dream gun but it had some really issues in the execution. That said I am going to convert a PX4 Compact Type G to DAO and see how I do with it.

  3. #183
    Site Supporter dogcaller's Avatar
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    P250 problem?

    Great thread, and many thanks to all contributors!

    I’ve always assumed that the P250 “problem” was just that people don’t like DAO autos. What is the rest? I got one for a song and it does have the best DA I’ve ever experienced. The ergos are great. Mine has been “Sig reliable,” though I’ve never run it hard. When I took my teenaged son to his first pistol class I made him take the 250, thinking that it would be wise to teach him the fundamentals of trigger control before giving him access to an easier (SFA) system. He did just fine, learned a great deal, and, after the class I made him show that he could do 10 on-demand headshots at 10yds. before I let him shoot a Glock. He did that, and once he got the the Glock, he got this big ****-eating grin and called me a cheater (I shot a G34 in the class, and had been the high shooter, so he had a point!).

    Ok, back to my point... I purchased the P250 because I realized it could be a great training tool for newbie friends and the occasional intro pistol courses I teach. This thread has got me thinking about the utility of the DAO or TDA in the context of a fighting problem rather than a (pure) shooting problem. I’ll never be as fast with a P250 as I am with a SFA, but maybe that’s not the problem I imagined it to be... Is there a problem with the P250 that should disqualify it from serious use? I know there are also LEO agencies which issued them-but there are also agencies which issue XDs, and I know those are not highly regarded by the cognoscenti here, so that might not be a great standard.

  4. #184
    It would be interesting to take your son to 25 yards and have him shoot groups with both the 250 and the 34.

    I've always found a good DA trigger a lot better than a Glock for slow fire accuracy.

  5. #185
    It would be interesting to take your son to 25 yards and have him shoot groups with both the 250 and the 34.

    I've always found a good DA trigger a lot easier than a Glock for slow fire accuracy.

    If we look at the handguns used by people who actually do a lot of fighting, DAO, TDA, LEM are gone or going away. So, outside of a few people on this forum, it's dying.

  6. #186
    Site Supporter JSGlock34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogcaller View Post
    Great thread, and many thanks to all contributors!

    I’ve always assumed that the P250 “problem” was just that people don’t like DAO autos. What is the rest?...Is there a problem with the P250 that should disqualify it from serious use? I know there are also LEO agencies which issued them-but there are also agencies which issue XDs, and I know those are not highly regarded by the cognoscenti here, so that might not be a great standard.
    About 10 years ago the P250 spectacularly failed ATF reliability testing, followed by the cancellation of large European police orders. No doubt the 250 has continued to benefit from 320 improvements over the past few years, but these early failures did much to damage the reputation of the 250. The fact that the 320 has subsequently gone on to such success is an impressive turnaround considering the shared DNA of these designs.
    "When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man."

  7. #187
    I had what I'll call a first generation P250. This was not long after they came out, and about the time their reliability was being seriously called into question by a lot of people who are smarter than me and who shoot a lot. My gun exhibited all the problems they we're warning about all rolled into one pistol. I sold it with full disclosure and switched to a G19 late production gen 3, just in time for the whole brass to face debacle, which my gun naturally exhibited in spades. That was cured by the Apex extractor. Then I end up with an injury to my median nerve which created problems with the thumb and first two fingers of my strong hand. This made striker fired pistols a safety problem other than at the range where I was totally concentrating on the trigger. I can feel motion very well, but not light contact if that makes sense. Double action revolver triggers work just fine for me. Sig had now ironed out their P250 problems, so I picked up what I call a second generation P250C and SC. Neither has had a single hiccup and work very well for my needs. But by then the P250 had such a bad reputation that you could gold plate it and ship it packed in holy water and it would still never get any traction, so it went out of production.

    M2CC, you commented that those who do a lot of fighting have gone away from DAO, LEM, and similar actions so those actions are dying. Isn't Dagga Boy's point that very few of us are actually doing a lot of fighting, but are usually doing a lot of combined threat and people management and very, very little shooting at humans? The percentage of military or LEO shooters who actually do a lot of fighting using a pistol is tiny. In the civilian CCW community it's even smaller. I don't see an easy to shoot but unforgiving of error trigger being a great solution for defensive use unless you also have the opportunity for good stress innoculation. Each shooter needs to look very carefully at the whole spectrum of factors which go into success or failure when the situation calls for success on demand with no warmup.

  8. #188
    Yeah, the people who do all of those are moving away from anything but Glock and 320 in droves.

    Hardware solutions to poor training/trigger discipline just don't work.

    New York City has been doing it for years with their 12lb Glock triggers and all they do is miss and shoot everyone else.

  9. #189
    Site Supporter dogcaller's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info--I'll start poking around to get the specifics on the P250 failures. I'm curious to know where mine falls in relation to any improvements they may have made while they were still in production.

    Funny thing about this is that, for years (decades now?!), I've looked askance at DAO autos as something dreamed up by risk-management bureaucracies in order to "idiot-proof" police sidearms, instead of teaching and reinforcing proper technique (a hardware solution to a software problem). This thread has me considering whether I had that bassackwards, in that the SFA selections make the shooting and qualification part easier, but are potentially more of a liability (for both the user and any agency s/he may represent), and thus represent a hardware solution to a software problem--but in the other direction.

    Just another example of why PF is SO very good.

  10. #190
    Site Supporter dogcaller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M2CattleCo View Post
    It would be interesting to take your son to 25 yards and have him shoot groups with both the 250 and the 34.

    I've always found a good DA trigger a lot better than a Glock for slow fire accuracy.
    That would be a good thing to do. My son is in the Marines now, but maybe we can get some trigger time during his next visit, in June.

    I have a very dear friend who is a great detective, a wonderful human being, and a lousy pistol shot. My buddies and I give him all the grief he can take about it--but he deserves it! Several years ago he had switched to an agency that issued the P250. He HATED it! Called it an abomination and cursed its existence-- and had to requal every time he went to the range. I wouldn't be surprised if some kindly range staff just "mercy-ed" him, or got tired of him and signed off. Fast forward a couple of years and he takes a detective slot with the county DA office. Issued a Glunck, and although he's never going to make the pistol team, he has more "success" with the SFA--because he lacks the fundamentals.

    He's getting to be a pretty big deal, now, and is a GREAT guy, a great officer and detective (detective of the qtr, and year--steadily promoting through his honest hard work), but he still gets the full ration of grief from our buddies and me--we knew him way back when he was turning wrenches as a senior in high school, and my son smoked him in the pistol (and latter rifle) classes!

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