I do not have remotely enough experience with the SD9 VE to comment. The key is if you are happy with the decision, have thought it through with an honest assessment of your needs and goals in a defensive pistol, and putting in the needed training.Originally Posted by Clobbersaurus
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
Dagga, have you shot the DAK much? I find it easier to shoot because the trigger pull seems more consistent throughout, vs the long pull with sudden wall of the LEM.
With time and practice I might change my mind, and I am certainly an outlier in this regard.
I'm not DB, but I've got a fair amount of time with both the DAK (issued) and LEM. I prefer the DAK's consistent trigger pull, if they would get rid of the false mid-ride heavier reset, it would be a much better trigger, IMHO. I've tried all the flavors of the LEM except the 4.1, and I agree that the light-to-weightless takeup with a hard "wall" is a trigger that I really struggled with.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think the Sig P250 had the best DAO trigger on any semi-auto I've ever handled. Weight was slightly lighter than the DAK, pull was longish (like a revolver), but smooth, with no wall. If I could get that trigger on a pistol that I trusted to work reliably, I'd ditch my GLOCKs in a heartbeat.
I like my P30v1 (light LEM) and the P2000v2 (heavy LEM), but I dont love them. I shoot them well, for the most part. My accuracy is close to par with my VP9s, I just shoot the VP9s that much faster, and I prefer the grip. I've taken to carrying a VP9 w/X300 everyday in an old RCS Phantom IWB, and I feel comfortable and confident. I hesitate to use the word perfect or its derivatives, but if I can find a way to amte a 10-8 rear with a Trijicon HD XR orange front, it might be there for me.
I agree with everything Dagga Boy has said regarding them as cop trigger. His points are valid, and well thought out. But I just didnt work out for mine, and thus I will sell them (anyone who wants dibs, gimme a holler).
I have been EDCing a P30SK in LEM for almost a year. I selected the LEM in part because of this thread and the objective positive attributes of the LEM.
I have several hundred rounds through it. I shot it at my recent Tom Givens Combative Pistol Course.
I'll take a contrasting respectful view to conclude the LEM is 'not for me'.
Being honest, I do not possess, nor do I have the money / time to develop, the necessary skill set to shoot it well.
In my class, I consistently felt 'off' during drills that had high stress levels. My first shots from concealment as well as after e.g. Transition we're typically not effective (not A zone).
I'm not trying to trash the trigger system, at all. I just want to offer an experience to others who might also be 'just starting out'.
If I had to do it over again, I'd try and opt for focusing solely on LEM as a trigger system (P30SK, P30, P2000 in LEM for instance) and shooting it exclusively is probably an approach to consider for folks like me who aren't at a high skill level.
Last edited by RJ; 10-07-2017 at 12:01 PM.
They all have positives and negatives. The key is matching the attributes you want to your needs and training program. I find the LEM is much more workable when you are dedicated to it and not shooting much else, and working at assessment speeds. It is in that context that they are excellent for the purpose they were designed for...LEO’s facing complex force problems regularly and usually only shooting qualification courses. When the “shooting” part becomes more important to your goals, easier to shoot triggers factor in.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
Dagga boy, I wish you were closer.
I think we are both happy with our PX4's, but I would still like to try a LEM trigger as well as have you try one of my PX4's that are C models (not F, G).
I have the parts that I am planning on inserting the hammer mech on my G subcompact, and then I could try a C and D model with the same slide.
Thanks DB. Your comments make much more sense to me now, having worked with the LEM for a while.
ETA: Hope to connect up with you and Wayne at Tac Con in Little Rock in March.
Last edited by RJ; 10-07-2017 at 01:34 PM. Reason: Add Tac Con note
Sharps54, you're correct, but my answer was then, and still is a bit more nuanced. The feral dog incident occurred at night, in a location where there was simultaneously low, shifting and contrasting light, and if I (and my clients) had been attacked by a pack of dogs, and if the dogs didn't break and run after the first shot(s), the revolver's effectiveness would have been severely diminished by the inherently more complex actions required to eject expended cartridges and reload. Particularly at night (or in limited light situations), the alternative semi-automatics in my possession simply made more sense, possessing a higher initial magazine capacity and simper and easier ergonomics expediting reloads when needed.
I still hold true to that concept-that at night and/or limited light situations a semi-automatic generally speaking trumps a revolver. And even more so if the semi-auto has effective night sights.
That doesn't mean that's a de-facto across the boards condemnation of revolvers, however; it just means that I tend to look at them and see if they're situationally appropriate before choosing them. There's much more of a conscious assessment and choice process involved for me regarding revolver use (particularly when I have semi-auto alternative choices). Could I make a revolver work at night? Probably. But situationally if I have superior alternative choices, I'd be a bit of a fool not to take advantage of selecting the most appropriate tool.
And it wasn't as if I'd performed disastrously in the Classifier with the Beretta 92D; it was just that with my GP100 revolve I achieved a quantifiably superior performance, with significantly less recent practice with the GP100 that's giving me a bit of a pause for considering increased use of my revolver(s) in situationally appropriate settings/times.
Best, Jon
Last edited by JonInWA; 10-07-2017 at 04:21 PM.
John C, the triggerpull weight on my Beretta 92D is a lightened 14 lbs, achieved by the combination of the Wilson/Langdon improved triggerbar and installation of a Wolff 14 lb mainspring. It's a pretty sweet combination, and I probably could safely go a pound or so lower via mainspring selection, but since the 14 lb set-up works with complete reliability and is significantly lightened from the OEM factory poundage I'm just going to let well enough alone there; the lowest I'd feel comfortable going to would be only 1 pound lower anyhow.
My DA/SA Ruger P89 manual safety model had a very smooth, but revolver-long DA triggerpull, and a nicely (relatively) light and crisp SA pull. I've shot very nicely with that gun in both square range and IDPA venues, so there's an excellent chance that I'll use it later this month at another IDPA Classifier; in a match immediately prior to the Classifier, I plan on using the GP100 to see how I comparatively perform with each.
Best, Jon
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