P30 +P not recommended

[Chuck Haggard]

Are you trying to tell me that there are no magic bullets?

When did that happen?

[GJM]

...and even if it's pressures in excess of the SAMMI and NATO specs, it only states that it can cause accellerated wear, not that it can't or shouldn't be used. In military technical manuals for any given thingy or system, there's three types of heads-up one will see: Note, Caution, Warning.

Note - item or action recommended or required for proper function and/or maintenance.

Caution - item, action or conditon to be avoided, lest one risk or guarantee damage to equipment.

Warning - item, action or condition to be avoided, lest one risk or guarantee injury or death to personnel (and usually, though not always, damage to equipment; secondary consideration, at best).

What the HK manual has is a "Note," because all it really means is that one MIGHT have to change certain components out more often using +P than one otherwise would....maybe. What action one chooses to take based upon that is ultimately in the hands of the user. In the case of my P30, I took it to mean "Plan accordingly...."

Interesting as these same three -- note, caution and warning are used in most of the turbine aircraft flight manuals I have seen.

[ffhounddog]

Weapons and Aircraft, I have seen this on military vehicles as well.

I am wondering if +P might be NATO+ to the European arms manufacturers.

[Rich]

Weapons and Aircraft, I have seen this on military vehicles as well.

I am wondering if +P might be NATO+ to the European arms manufacturers.

Our win 9mm 142 gr with Nato circle cross isn't near +P

[Rich]

Unfortunately, people are buying and running this stuff. I know that HK has seen issues with some very unusual and rapid wear issues due to +P and higher (and some of this stuff is running over a hundred feet per second faster than what is listed..which is already over the top) .40 S&W rounds. It is for that H.V. crowd and the damage HK is seeing in guns (including the USP's) that is what is fueling the updated warnings in the manual. Many folks believe that if the ammunition comes in a box from a manufacturer that it must be SAMMI or NATO spec, and this is not the case.

380ACP+P & 40S&W +P

I've read that one of guys started selling his reloads from his garage.
One should wonder if he has all the fancy tech to tell or test for pressure.


So back to the USP Compact 9mm and the P30 9mm
Is it your opinion they share the same maintenance schedule or should I say service life?


BTW

Thanks for the info

[Dagga Boy]

From everything I have seen and read and experience with both systems, the P30 is every bit the USP-C in terms of what standards they are built to and I would actually venture that the P30 would exceed the USP's in long term service life. Really, the only major item with the P30 people have seen is the trigger return spring.

[Rich]

From everything I have seen and read and experience with both systems, the P30 is every bit the USP-C in terms of what standards they are built to and I would actually venture that the P30 would exceed the USP's in long term service life. Really, the only major item with the P30 people have seen is the trigger return spring.

That's good to hear.
Thanks

[Molon]

I am wondering if +P might be NATO+ to the European arms manufacturers.

For starters, there is no such thing as a 9mm "NATO+" specification. Secondly, contrary to all the nonsense posted by Internet Commandos, there is nothing at all “hot” about the 9mm 124 grain NATO load. The velocity figures that people like to throw around for the 9mm 124 grain NATO round are from test barrels, (7.85” EPVAT barrels to be specific) not actual pistol barrels. Even when fired from a Beretta 92, with its 5 inch barrel, the 124 grain NATO round doesn’t even come close to the velocities people claim. In fact, there is little difference in velocity between the 9mm 124 grain NATO round and a modern standard pressure 9mm 124 grain duty/self-defense round.

As an example, the chronograph printout shown below is from the Speer 124 grain Gold Dot standard pressure load fired from a Beretta 92. The average instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1114 fps.





Now take a look at the next chronograph printout. This printout is from the Winchester 9mm 124 grain NATO load fired from the same Beretta 92, fired immediately after the Gold Dot load was fired. The average instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1108 fps; 6 fps less than the Gold Dot load.





Here is some additional chronograph data (with muzzle velocities), this time comparing Federal's 9mm 124 grain NATO load to several other 124 grain duty loads. All loads were fired from a SIG Sauer P229 with a 3.8" barrel. Note that the 9mm NATO load is the slowest load in the table.





.....

[Suvorov]

For starters, there is no such thing as a 9mm "NATO+" specification. Secondly, contrary to all the nonsense posted by Internet Commandos, there is nothing at all “hot” about the 9mm 124 grain NATO load. The velocity figures that people like to throw around for the 9mm 124 grain NATO round are from test barrels, (7.85” EPVAT barrels to be specific) not actual pistol barrels. Even when fired from a Beretta 92, with its 5 inch barrel, the 124 grain NATO round doesn’t even come close to the velocities people claim. In fact, there is little difference in velocity between the 9mm 124 grain NATO round and a modern standard pressure 9mm 124 grain duty/self-defense round.

As an example, the chronograph printout shown below is from the Speer 124 grain Gold Dot standard pressure load fired from a Beretta 92. The average instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1114 fps.

Now take a look at the next chronograph printout. This printout is from the Winchester 9mm 124 grain NATO load fired from the same Beretta 92, fired immediately after the Gold Dot load was fired. The average instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1108 fps; 6 fps less than the Gold Dot load.

Here is some additional chronograph data (with muzzle velocities), this time comparing Federal's 9mm 124 grain NATO load to several other 124 grain duty loads. All loads were fired from a SIG Sauer P229 with a 3.8" barrel. Note that the 9mm NATO load is the slowest load in the table.

.....

Molon, I'm wondering where the Winchester 9mm NATO came from? Was it commercial/LE production Ranger or was it brown box military production? I am wondering because back in the 1990s when Federal started making their commercial M882 ammo in the white box, I purchased a bunch. I later then worried about if they were as "hot" as I understood M882 to be, and so I called Federal and spoke to one of their reps. What he told me is that they were not as hot as the M882 loads that went to the military but still on the hot side for the 9mm (he didn't say +P or anything like that so I assumed regular 9mm). Who knows if the rep was telling me this just to keep me happy or not? As someone who doesn't have a chrono, I've never bothered to find out, but I always figured based on that phone call that the civilian marketed stuff was not as hot as the real military production ammo.

[ToddG]

Molon -- I'd be more likely to question the particular lot of ammo, personally. The Speer 54882 I've been shooting for most of the past year, for example, is a "mil-spec" 124gr rated at 1,220fps from a standard (4") 9mm test barrel. From an actual 5" gun I want to say it averaged just a hair under 1,200fps and was very similar to the 124gr +p HST (rated at 1,200fps) which is definitely rated from a 4" barrel (see here).

There are other factors that affect peak chamber pressure than just bullet velocity. Flash suppressants, specific powder blends, powder grain size/shape, etc. can all change pressure without a one-to-one ratio in velocity.