Distance and Knife Attacks

[SouthNarc]

One of the reasons I prefer adapting Greco-Roman wrestling to the weapons based environment is because it teaches hand fighting and if a confrontation does go to an entanglement, then the problem is managed with a high degree of limb control. More limb control, less damage from knives.

Outside of contact range there's a no man's land where you're to close to draw a weapon and a "pick-up" is required to get you to an angle of escape or into an attachment for better control. ALL pick-ups are dicey but probably the better one is a split X. Marc Denny calls this the "Dog-Catcher" which is a ghey name but is essentially the same technique. You'll see it in numerous FMAs including Illustrisimo, Inosanto/Lacosta, Lameco, Pekiti, Doce Pares, and Serrada.

[JHC]

One of the reasons I prefer adapting Greco-Roman wrestling to the weapons based environment is because it teaches hand fighting and if a confrontation does go to an entanglement, then the problem is managed with a high degree of limb control. More limb control, less damage from knives.

Outside of contact range there's a no man's land where you're to close to draw a weapon and a "pick-up" is required to get you to an angle of escape or into an attachment for better control. ALL pick-ups are dicey but probably the better one is a split X. Marc Denny calls this the "Dog-Catcher" which is a ghey name but is essentially the same technique. You'll see it in numerous FMAs including Illustrisimo, Inosanto/Lacosta, Lameco, Pekiti, Doce Pares, and Serrada.

Do you think Peyton Quinn's take on it had merit? [getting both hands on the knifer's strong hand and do you best with what you got left IIRC]

[Dagga Boy]

So what is the useful training response other than "keep your kittening distance"? Default defensive stance so your arms get shredded instead of your gut while you try to figure out what is going on?

Probably some training. I have spent a ton of time in knife classes with many of the top of the food chain edged weapons guys. It is the reason it was so important for Wayne and I to bring Steve Tarani on board for us as it is part of balancing out our training program. While you can make a lifetime study of edged weapons and martial arts (and many have), a couple of foundational classes will go a long way to help, or at least establish some sort of response to edged and impact weapon attacks and understanding the concepts needed to deal with these threats.

[ford.304]

Probably some training. I have spent a ton of time in knife classes with many of the top of the food chain edged weapons guys. It is the reason it was so important for Wayne and I to bring Steve Tarani on board for us as it is part of balancing out our training program. While you can make a lifetime study of edged weapons and martial arts (and many have), a couple of foundational classes will go a long way to help, or at least establish some sort of response to edged and impact weapon attacks and understanding the concepts needed to deal with these threats.

I guess I maybe should have been more specific... if most people being stabbed don't realize they are being stabbed until the third or fourth puncture wound, how hard is it to get your "knife training" to go to work? Or are the defensive counters similar enough for unarmed grappling to work as a generic response?

Where I'm coming from with this - I have a small amount of experience boxing, and it seems like a lot of the counters I would automatically try if I thought someone was punching me would result in some serious stab wounds if he wasn't just punching. I realize my ignorance in this area.

[KravPirate]

I guess I maybe should have been more specific... if most people being stabbed don't realize they are being stabbed until the third or fourth puncture wound, how hard is it to get your "knife training" to go to work? Or are the defensive counters similar enough for unarmed grappling to work as a generic response?

Where I'm coming from with this - I have a small amount of experience boxing, and it seems like a lot of the counters I would automatically try if I thought someone was punching me would result in some serious stab wounds if he wasn't just punching. I realize my ignorance in this area.

Two options, either close the distance or make distance. Ideally, you want to create distance and avoid the attack by utilizing something like SouthNarc's MUC. Once the attack is initiated the distance must be closed regardless if it's empty hand or weapon based attack. Once a fight becomes clinch range, preemption is gone and the ability to create distance will depend on other factors. So with that being said, violent strikes and movement along with dominating the clinch is imperative.

[Dagga Boy]

I guess I maybe should have been more specific... if most people being stabbed don't realize they are being stabbed until the third or fourth puncture wound, how hard is it to get your "knife training" to go to work? Or are the defensive counters similar enough for unarmed grappling to work as a generic response?

Where I'm coming from with this - I have a small amount of experience boxing, and it seems like a lot of the counters I would automatically try if I thought someone was punching me would result in some serious stab wounds if he wasn't just punching. I realize my ignorance in this area.

I wish I had some cool acronym to give you. Essentially, you need to build an attack response that is compatible with both edged and impact weapons (with body parts being considered impact weapons). You need an understanding of how those weapons are deployed, how to counter/avoid them, and essential mechanics of their use so that you can best counter them. I guess it would be a MUCECQC something or other.

Nobody get butt hurt.......I like Craig, and recommend him all the time. Besides, you sometimes need to MUC ECQC in an adaptive hyper- dynamic disruptive environment with denied access........

[KravPirate]

I wish I had some cool acronym to give you. Essentially, you need to build an attack response that is compatible with both edged and impact weapons (with body parts being considered impact weapons). You need an understanding of how those weapons are deployed, how to counter/avoid them, and essential mechanics of their use so that you can best counter them. I guess it would be a MUCECQC something or other.

Nobody get butt hurt.......I like Craig, and recommend him all the time. Besides, you sometimes need to MUC ECQC in an adaptive hyper- dynamic disruptive environment with denied access........

I referenced Craig's material because it is an easy to understand format of how to maintain distance. Back to ford.304's question, one problem with folks that want to learn self defense is that they want to immediately learn how to defend against weapons because it sounds cool. Well, if one doesn't have a thorough understanding of striking and clinch, then a lot can be missed when learning weapons defenses. If I can't defend myself against an empty handed attacker then how can I win if I am attacked by some violent dude wielding a knife. The basics of empty hand fighting definitely carry over to knife defenses. Oh, one other thing, expect to get cut somewhere even if you win.

[SouthNarc]

I guess I maybe should have been more specific... if most people being stabbed don't realize they are being stabbed until the third or fourth puncture wound, how hard is it to get your "knife training" to go to work? Or are the defensive counters similar enough for unarmed grappling to work as a generic response?

Where I'm coming from with this - I have a small amount of experience boxing, and it seems like a lot of the counters I would automatically try if I thought someone was punching me would result in some serious stab wounds if he wasn't just punching. I realize my ignorance in this area.

It's common to get cut/stabbed and not know it. Any unarmed template should take that into account. For that very reason I'm not a "stay in the pipe" kind of pugilist unless it's an attached striking/dirty boxing game.

Essentially to minimize his hands being in contact with you then it's either a mobility game or an attachment game working to take his back. I play an underhook-arm tie game for this very reason in the clinch versus a collar tie head control game. Head control concedes limbs and allows hands to swing wild. Not good if you missed a blade in his hand and just caught motion.

And on your boxing you're right. Covering versus intercepting will get you stuck. But intercepting (blocking) as you know is low percentage for dealing with punches and we certainly can't sacrifice consciousness either.

So there's no free lunch. Personally the strategy template I advocate is that you have to stay conscious and mobile long enough to get quickly out of hand range or if it goes to the clinch you have to immediately establish limb control and stabilize the entanglement long enough to take his back so you can release behind him and not in front of his hands. That's best case and you still may get stuck. I've been in and out of short blade work since '88 and that's the best I've figured out to date.

[ford.304]

Thanks for the education, all of you Time to find a good class/gym.

[Dagga Boy]

So there's no free lunch. Personally the strategy template I advocate is that you have to stay conscious and mobile long enough to get quickly out of hand range or if it goes to the clinch you have to immediately establish limb control and stabilize the entanglement long enough to take his back so you can release behind him and not in front of his hands. That's best case and you still may get stuck. I've been in and out of short blade work since '88 and that's the best I've figured out to date.

This is on the money. In the past, I had my best success in "cop fights" with boxers (very popular among the gangsters in "my age"). It was mainly due to countering it with clinches, tight work, and a lot of leg work, and working towards the rear of the head. All "counter" to traditional boxer's training. You did have to clear their "range" as it sucked when they connected a punch. With the advent of MMA today, things are more complicated. The biggest thing you need to take away from training is not really techniques, but understanding of the dynamics and to recognize what is happening.

Just to emphasize......I was "internet funning" with Craig on the abbreviations...., see lots of smilies.

Also, Marc (Crafty Dog) Denny is a very good resource to spend some time on the net digging up thoughts, and videos. I have learned a lot over the years paying attention to what Marc says. The training time I have had with Marc on a couple of occasions has been enlightening.