Originally Posted by JAD
That's what I experienced in DHG1 at TR way back in Ought Four. I did cheat though and watch some TR videos beforehand (and practiced), so I had an idea of what was coming. Didn't take Clint and Co long to spot and correct what I was doing improperly.
Except my desire to shoot faster than my ability to shoot fast. They couldn't cure me of that (though they tried.)
In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man
I know, right? Effin' Louis Awerbuck and Massad Ayoob, right? Posers! You should go show those n00bs how to run a pistol class!
Matter of fact, sign me up for JAD Level One Handgun! I want to get all that bad stuff out of my head.
I have an aversion to holes in me...
In many states a student without a CWP/CCW will need to show up with their gun in a box unloaded.
I do not believe for a basic handgun course that (if I read you right) an 1:8 Instructor to Student Ratio is sufficient to either point out corrections to each student, or to control a line of new to pistol folks trying to manipulate a handgun and holster.
New shooters fore the most part will wave pistols anywhere -- the short barrel length does not compute and you quickly end up with folks lasing others.
I believe (I have a lot of beliefs by the way) that a 1:2 and at most a 1:3 Instructor to Student ratio is sufficient to ensure the safety of the group dynamic. That way the Instructor can keep eyes on all, and if they need to move into an area where they loose control of the other two they can have them cease fire for a moment.
I took my first open enrollment course in 2004 - and was horrified that I was looking down the barrel of a .40 Berretta while a dip shit was trying to figure out how to clear an obstruction and figured he'd rotate the gun 90 to his left to give him more leverage.
1 thing to know about me - and many of my friends (or just acquaintances) will attest -- IF I FEEL SOMETHING IS UNSAFE, IT PROBABLY IS...
Kevin S. Boland
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Law Tactical LLC
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kevin@lawtactical.com
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What you describe Awerbuck as having done is exactly what I described, "working from the holster on day two." I couldn't tell if you were saying that Mas was smarter than Awerbuck or not.
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When I do my basic CW classes that is the default. Even if they have a holster when we go to the range I have them draw an empty gun, load on the line, then go to a low ready. None of the actual firing starts with the loaded gun in the holster. I'm happy to demo holster types and use but given a true "never really did this before" shooter having to work from the holster is just one more complication to deal with. I give them instruction on basic mechanics of the draw and have them practice a bit with unloaded guns, but given the limited time available holster work is just not smart for that particualr class.from kevinB:
Having seen the lowest common denominator in pistol classes, I think that the basics will start off without an holster usage at all.
Last edited by David Armstrong; 08-27-2013 at 10:45 AM.
"PLAN FOR YOUR TRAINING TO BE A REFLECTION OF REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF HOPING THAT REAL LIFE WILL BE A REFLECTION OF YOUR TRAINING!"
Not directed at any particular person, but something I came to realize more than a decade ago when I quit teaching the CCW class at the NRA Range: How do you sign off on someone as "certified" to carry concealed if you've never seen them draw from concealment?
You, yourself, think it's unsafe for the person to be handling a loaded gun in the holster on a firing line under the eyes of instructors with little or no stress. But you are willing to sign your name to a sheet of paper that says he's been trained to carry a concealed handgun. Pass.
I realize that the instructor can justify his actions by saying, "I trained him to the standards required by the state for a CCW permit applicant." I still don't want to be the one checking the box for the guy.
Smarter? No. But I felt like there was a smaller window for screwups.
Obviously I'm being a bit of a Nervous Nell as both programs have outstanding safety records*; I'm just very untrusting of my fellow humans, especially if I see wobbliness in gun-handling skills from someone who will be standing next to me on the line with a hot gun momentarily.
(*AFAIK, Louis has batted a thousand thus far, while Mas has had only one student in... what, 25 years?... give themselves a racing stripe. They've probably had more people get in car wrecks on the way to class. I have just managed to stay really nervous about guns, despite having worked around them all my life.)
I think that attitude is encouraged among the cognoscenti, and I think that's generally laudable... But it can warp into a kind of elitism, becoming just another way of seeing others as inferior.*; I'm just very untrusting of my fellow humans, .
Part of my butthurt probably stems from a difference in what we're referring to as 'beginner' classes. I think 250 is a beginner class. I think 150 is the bare minimum, and I think ccw cert-type classes don't really count. Maybe that's my elitism showing.
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I tend to think so. Not that I don't have my own elitisms.
But they do say in the 250 course description:
Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
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Based on Givens' data, that seems likely, if you walk away from there having made a conscious decision to carry every day. I don't know from lately, but that used to be what Gunsite was most particularly good at (the epiphany). I wasn't being specific about Gunsite, though, and haven't sampled data there since the 90's to know; I'm just drawing a line between three day classes combining marksmanship and mindset (150 equivalent) and 1-2 day skills only or (worse) ccw classes, which are worth squat for a new shooter (But in the case of the skill builder, great for a trained person).
Jon
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