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Thread: NJ-friendly HD shotgun?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara View Post
    Like frangible handgun bullets, this is one of those things that, when it works just right, works spectacularly right. I've heard tales from police officer friends who were first on the scene after a homeowner with a stack-barrel skeet gun warned the intruder not to come through the door. "Chewed a rat hole" is, I believe, the term that was used. Four to six inches? Take a melon ball scooper and dig a four-to-six-inch-deep, 1" diameter hole between somebody's nipples and see how they feel, because that's what a near-muzzle-contact shot with a choked fowling piece and some Wally World promo 2 3/4" birdshot is likely going to do...

    ...provided the lightly-clad guy of reasonably average build is just standing there facing the shooter at near-muzzle-contact distance, of course.

    On the other hand, that's assuming everything goes right, which is a mighty big assumption to make considering that things have to have already gone wrong to need to grab a long gun in the first place. All variables considered, I'm with you: I don't know I'd necessarily want to go smaller than #4 buck.
    Naked skin is ballistic gel, actually that's incorrect, internal flesh is more accurate. Skin is actually tougher than the interior. So assuming someone has no bones (i.e, rib cage or skull that BBs will deflect off of) and no shirt or jacket on. (Notice there was no 4 Layer denim or windshield ballistic test for birdshot)

    I'll remind all of you this is also New Jersey which means most people will be wearing coats close to half the year.

    You might get lucky and get some of the smallest BB's at the lowest velocity loading to make it to the internal organs. Which makes the smallest wound cavity on its way there, which leaks the least amount of blood.

    But why would you?

    Do any of you carry FMJ for self-defense?

    I mean it's a bullet? FMJ kills tons of people everyday!

    ETA: It's literally telling people to use the absolute worst loading possible for the scenario to use that loading in the most crucial times.

    The slowest, smallest and most cheaply made loading for self-defense.

    5.56mm 75 gr TAP for self defense? Screw that .223 55 gr wolf. 9mm 147 gr HST? Pfffft who needs that 115 gr FMJ Tulammo!

    Except Wolf and Tulammo are drastically more effective than birdshot versus buckshot.

    5.56??? How about .22 Short, it's the same caliber, why not?

    ETA 2: To drive the stake home.

    Who uses Birdshot to hunt Turkey or Duck here?

    Or anything else other than those animals?

    Why would you not use a load made for a less than 3-5 lb animal within about 40-60 yards with hollow bones on a aggressive attacker weighing 165 with not hollow bones?

    And those doves? They aren't going to shoot you back in the middle of the night in your house at hallway distance. I'm just saying.

    I have been harsh in this comment but it's just because I want people to not be injured or killed depending on the wrong equipment.

    How many Police, Military or Protective Services use birdshot?

    Name One.
    Last edited by BWT; 09-11-2013 at 11:58 AM.

  2. #52
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    BWT,

    Did you read all the way to where I wrote

    I'm with you: I don't know I'd necessarily want to go smaller than #4 buck.
    ...or just see red, hit "reply with quote" and start ragetyping after the first sentence?

    I would never recommend somebody use birdshot for home defense, nor have I ever done so. The window for its successful deployment is way too narrow, like I said in my post.

    ETA: Chill, dude.

    ETA: Calm down.

    ETA: I was agreeing with you, for Pete's sake.
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  3. #53
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    I didn't mean to rage type.

    It's just, I've heard the birdshot for 12 GA for self-defense comment a lot. I'd like to see it not perpetuated.

    My conduct wasn't very gracious, I just apologized too.

  4. #54
    Member Al T.'s Avatar
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    Shotguns are very much like swords - the closer you are to that muzzle, the deadlier they are, regardless of load.

    My problem is downrange hazards to innocents. The lighter-loaded gauge gives me more room for error, so it's loaded with BBs. As for 8s, 7 1/2s, etc., nope, though I have killed critters at very close range with birdshot. Not recommended though.

  5. #55
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpd223 View Post
    I have seen people chopped up at close range with bird shot, and I mean like from ten feet away. One murder victim was missing an arm from being whacked by her ex with #6 duck and pheasant loads.

    However, comma, I have also seen several OISs that led to us going from 4buck back to OObuck after we had some pretty serious underpenetration issues.

    In one case having to shoot a bad guy wearing a denim jacket through a screened storm door led to all of the #4 buck pellets stopping on the bad guy's rib cage. Ammo in question would be a full power (this was well before low recoil loads hit the market) Remington 27 pellet load from an 18" 870, shot made from the front yard across the porch, maybe ten yards away.

    #1 buck is as small as I prefer to go, not that I wouldn't use what I had if forced to do so.
    As was mentioned above, I think the range involved has a great matter of influence on the effectiveness of birdshot....so that should probably weigh in on anyone's decision.

    My house? I live in a house typical for an older northeast city dwelling....I don't think I could find 10 yards of linear space anywhere in my home unless I was standing on the back porch and shooting to the front door. If you were to hide behind any bed in the house and train the shotgun on the door, you'd have about 6 feet from muzzle to target. I really wouldn't be uncomfortable with putting birdshot in my 12ga.

    But, rsa-otc gave me some spare Federal 00 Flight-Control, and being the sort of person that prefers to smash a fly with a sledgehammer, I load my 12ga with such. That stuff is the bomb.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    But, rsa-otc gave me some spare Federal 00 Flight-Control, and being the sort of person that prefers to smash a fly with a sledgehammer, I load my 12ga with such. That stuff is the bomb.
    At the distances in question what you have is slugs loaded in your gun, actually maybe worse in penetration terms since Foster style slugs will mushroom big time at close range, Flightcontrol blows through in a single mass. Just an FYI

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    But, rsa-otc gave me some spare Federal 00 Flight-Control, and being the sort of person that prefers to smash a fly with a sledgehammer, I load my 12ga with such. That stuff is the bomb.
    I have a case of that stuff, and my only regret is that I can't find it in #1, and the one time I saw it in #1, I thought it would be around forever and that was obviously a mistake.

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  8. #58
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpd223 View Post
    At the distances in question what you have is slugs loaded in your gun, actually maybe worse in penetration terms since Foster style slugs will mushroom big time at close range, Flightcontrol blows through in a single mass. Just an FYI
    He also gave me some LE127RS slugs. You think those would be a better choice for the distances I'm at? I also have some run of the mill Federal and Fiocchi low recoil 00.

    I'm personally not worried about over-penetration with the 00, especially with the construction of my house and neighboring houses. A miss with a slug might be a bad thing, however.


    Quote Originally Posted by jmjames View Post
    I have a case of that stuff, and my only regret is that I can't find it in #1, and the one time I saw it in #1, I thought it would be around forever and that was obviously a mistake.

    J.Ja

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    You up here yet?
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  9. #59
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    He also gave me some LE127RS slugs. You think those would be a better choice for the distances I'm at? I also have some run of the mill Federal and Fiocchi low recoil 00.

    I'm personally not worried about over-penetration with the 00, especially with the construction of my house and neighboring houses. A miss with a slug might be a bad thing, however.
    At those distances and if I was at all worried about shoot throughs I would use the slugs or the other OO buck. Flightcontrol has quite a bit of penetration when it hits all together.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    He also gave me some LE127RS slugs. You think those would be a better choice for the distances I'm at? I also have some run of the mill Federal and Fiocchi low recoil 00.

    I'm personally not worried about over-penetration with the 00, especially with the construction of my house and neighboring houses. A miss with a slug might be a bad thing, however.





    Mmmmhmmm.

    You up here yet?
    Funny, I've got a small pile of those LE127RS slugs too, and like them a lot.

    I got here the week of August 26, things are *finally* settled enough where I could get out to a range. I don't need an FPID to go shoot do I, just to buy stuff? I'd hate to show up to a range and end up in trouble due to a lack of an FPID...

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