Defoor on Mindset

[LittleLebowski]

I have a hard time taking Kier seriously but not so with Defoor.

[Rubio Negro]

Thanks for sharing that. Really made me think.

[ToddG]

Kyle's a very good instructor and an excellent pistol shooter. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him.

[SJC3081]

If you are willing to employ DPF when needed that if 75% of the battle. Most men will hestiate when they need to kill another man. Those who don't hestiate are willing and they survive.

[Bigguy]

There was a lot of good stuff there. The only part I didn't much care for was the example Defoor used when explaining his idea that one should 'Die well'. I understood him to imply I have some intrinsic duty to protect the lives of others. To me, my first duty is to protect my family, be a provider to them and be a father to my son. The lives of others are secondary to that. Rather than rush in (in his example), I would get my family to a safe area (assuming they were with me) and then call the police and be a good witness. Call that cowardice or callousness if you wish but I'm not a cop and I have no duty to protect the lives of others. Now, if the life of someone I love was at stake, it's a whole different ball game.

And I should add, I don't judge someone for viewing things as he does, I just have different priorities.

Same here. My duty is to me and mine. I am not a sheepdog. There are obviously some exceptions. Women*, children and the infirm. But another healthy male can make the same decision I made to protect himself. I'm not depriving my wife of her husband or my kids of their father because some other, capable guy, decided not to.

* I know there are some number of women who could whip my 57-year-old butt in hand to hand. And there are many more who could shoot rings around me. Some of them are likely members of this board. None-the-less, I was raised in a time when the phrase. "women and children first," was unquestioned. Whether they need it or not, I'm to old now to not believe that any woman is entitled to any protection I can provide.

[JHC]

Kyle Defoor's scenario was quite explicit. I don't think he is going to be splitting hairs about whether children, the elderly or able bodied males were being murdered in the restaurant.

But that is a striking element of his "Mind Set" package. He goes right at it. Sort out your "Why" first.

[JHC]

I understood him to imply I have some intrinsic duty to protect the lives of others. To me, my first duty is to protect my family, be a provider to them and be a father to my son. The lives of others are secondary to that. Rather than rush in (in his example), I would get my family to a safe area (assuming they were with me) and then call the police and be a good witness. Call that cowardice or callousness if you wish but I'm not a cop and I have no duty to protect the lives of others. Now, if the life of someone I love was at stake, it's a whole different ball game.

And I should add, I don't judge someone for viewing things as he does, I just have different priorities.

Or even more than "imply". I think he put it flat out on the table. Walk on by when you could have helped and forget about "dying well". OTOH he laid out the "why" part first. If you check that box that your Why question is settled as you laid out; that seemed to work for his methodology explained, if not for him personally.

It's part and parcel of a system of morality; an ethic that Kyle's writings explicitly endorse. I would not be too far out on a limb to guess it is alien to almost everyone I know except my some of my mil friends and family.

In my circle of non-martial friends and co-workers, I don't know a single one who has given one moment of thought to dying well. In discussions examining mortality I am prone to instigating; the vast majority say they want to die in their sleep.

I really appreciate Defoor tackling this head on. I think it is a long neglected part of mindset training. Some others cultures historically have embraced it; albeit not modern ones much. Today IMO our overall culture avoids it.

I would love to hear his long version of this live.

[Al T.]

Excellent find, thanks for posting Joe!

[zacbol]

Or even more than "imply". I think he put it flat out on the table. Walk on by when you could have helped and forget about "dying well". OTOH he laid out the "why" part first. If you check that box that your Why question is settled as you laid out; that seemed to work for his methodology explained, if not for him personally.

It's part and parcel of a system of morality; an ethic that Kyle's writings explicitly endorse. I would not be too far out on a limb to guess it is alien to almost everyone I know except my some of my mil friends and family.

In my circle of non-martial friends and co-workers, I don't know a single one who has given one moment of thought to dying well. In discussions examining mortality I am prone to instigating; the vast majority say they want to die in their sleep.

I really appreciate Defoor tackling this head on. I think it is a long neglected part of mindset training. Some others cultures historically have embraced it; albeit not modern ones much. Today IMO our overall culture avoids it.

I would love to hear his long version of this live.

I've heard John Holschen and others at Insights present similar material to what Defoor is talking about here a few times now and it's resonated a lot more with me personally. Holschen speaks about having a 'mission statement' that you decide on, that is specifically yours, and that informs your actions. He shared his which is "I'm going to come through this with a minimum of damage to me and mine." Personally, I can't think of a better one.

Of course, there is no right/wrong, it's just about what's important to you. There's nothing to prevent you from using one that involve an absolute moral imperative to protect everyone regardless of circumstance. Holschen does however run through various videos, particularly in a class like Street & Vehicle Tactics, and asks you to evaluate the situation, why you would or wouldn't get involved and what risk you are taking, both in that moment and going forward. Sometimes something that seems obvious, a woman being knifed by a man, might not be. You don't know what happened *before* you got there.

Holschen provides an thought experiment about involving yourself, which goes something like: you go to the same Starbuck's every day. One day the woman who serves you you're coffee says she's dying of cancer and needs 60K to get a treatment that will save her life. Do you liquidate your bank account to save her? What does that mean for your own ability to pay bills, provide for your family? Because if you get involved in a shooting, you are probably looking at 60K plus just to stay out of court. It's obviously a slightly artificial example, you can pick holes in it if you try, but I think it's still useful way to think about priorities and what you are willing to give up by making the question more an everyday one that does not require heroics.

I actually think the notion of involving oneself to save others more common amongst CCWers who haven't thought about this stuff, than the converse. Obviously, Defoor has put a lot of thought into the subject so in no way am I linking him to that, just that the end result is similar. I certainly enjoyed the talk and would even adopt the notion of 'Dying well', it just means something different to me than him. I have my own priorities and Holchen and crew helped me to really see that, whereas before I probably actually would have been *more* inclined to involve myself in certain situations rather than looking at things a bit more logically and methodically.

[CR78]

For those of you that have heard Defoor's mindset lecture in person, how does it vary from the video? I've read AAR's that say the mindset lecture alone is worth taking the class for, and it always seemed that the content was sacred, for lack of a better word,...something discussed only between those who have taken the class. I'm somewhat surprised to see KD create a video discussing it, though the content is clearly abbreviated. His pistol course is definitely at the top of my list.