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Thread: 2,000 Round Challenge

  1. #411
    Pistol: Beretta APX Full Size
    Caliber: 9mm
    Ammunition: 115gr Fiocchi 9mm
    Dates of testing: May 9th, 2018
    Total rounds fired: 2,000 SHO
    Stoppages: 0
    Malfunctions: 0
    Breakages: 0
    Photos After the Challenge: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AvaVLzoc2_8Mi6QfH1FdEX4HpgG1yA
    Video Documentation: https://youtu.be/C7a5cRuELKU
    Accuracy Group Pre-test: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AvaVLzoc2_8Mi6QiG7EFS5tE9jPfyw
    Accuracy Group Post-test: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AvaVLzoc2_8Mi6QhCH-8SNtPmzQAEQ
    Ammo for Group Test: Handloaded 115gr Hornady HAP, Mixed Brass, CCI primers, 6.3gr Power Pistol
    Temperature: 70 - 85 degrees F
    Timing: Shot from approx. 1/2 PM until 7 PM
    Total Time "firing": Approx. 30 - 40 minutes, about 1.1 rounds / second

    Introduction:

    I can't bring myself to leave a dirty gun lying around, so I committed to doing a 2000 round challenge with the Beretta APX in a single day. Needless to say, this was a lot of work.

    The reason for doing this test in the first place was to address the limited number of instances of 2000-round challenges available on the Beretta APX, and also to provide some data points for exploring issues that have been variously reported with the design. I previously tested the APX slide serrations under wet and oily conditions. I wanted to also have some documentation for discussing the following concerns that have been mentioned here or there:

    1. Generous chamber area and feed ramp leading to too little support for the cases.

    2. Reported Kabooms with PPU Nato and Fiocchi Ammunition.

    3. Chassis opening up inside of the frame.

    4. Slow or sluggish slide action, possibly leading to failures to return to battery. Any other reduced slide movements due to grime, dirt, insufficient recoil spring force, or deformation.

    5. Signs of pitting on the breech face

    6. Signs of OOB detonation risks, bulged casings (Glock Smiley), unusual primer strikes, &c.

    7. Light strikes, reduced striker force, &c.

    8. Viability of Beretta's Lubrication recommendations for extended firing sequences.

    9. Dirtiness of the gun/ammo combination, barrel wear, condition of the barrel, and any reductions in accuracy, &c.

    10. Finger wear/ergonomics relating to any blisters, bruising, or fatigue caused by the design.

    11. Ability to deal with normal amounts of heat; explicitely, I was not interested in a torture test of extreme levels of heat, but I did want to get the gun reasonably hot (indeed, this was unavoidable in order to make the goal of shooting 2,000 rounds in a single range session).

    The gun itself has been shot a reasonable amount, and has been dry fired extensively, often without snap caps. I wanted to see how well the gun held up to that sort of use, as I have had other guns that routinely require regular return spring replacements and the like because of heavy dry firing schedules. In particular, the gun has been "fired" (dry or wet) with enough frequency to be able to highlight any potential issues with light primer strikes if they are likely to be widespread with respect to ammo type, rather than particular to a specific primer, for instance.

    It was purchased early when the gun was first released. It has all stock, original parts, with the exception of a grey frame/grip installed on it.

    Preparation:

    This is the same gun that was previously used in my "wet and oily" slide serrations test. After that, the gun was cleaned in a solution of detergent and then re-cleaned again using the Roger's Advanced Gun Cleaning Solution/Squeeg-E kits.

    The gun was freshly lubricated in strict accordance with Beretta's manual, which specifies the barrel to be lightly oiled, the slide rails to have a light oiling, the rail guides in the slide, and the recoil spring to receive a light oiling. The manual explicitly discourages oiling any of the rest of the action of the gun, and I followed this instruction. Roger's Premium Lubricant was used to lubricate the gun. This is a lightweight gun oil that comes with the Advanced Gun Cleaning Solution.

    All magazines were cleaned using the Advanced Gun Cleaning Solution at the same time that the gun was cleaned. No oil was applied to the magazines, but the "Rinse Agent" was used in accordance with the Roger's kit instructions.

    A total of 3 magazines were used throughout the test.

    Process:

    A 10-round test group was shot at 25 yards from a sandbag style rest at an 8" black on white bullseye target using my handloaded ammunition. I used what I call a "10 and 2" sight picture, which means that I align the front and rear posts of the sight, and then use that line to horizontally bisect the bullseye such that the lines intersect on the circumference of the bullseye at the 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock positions.

    After this group, 50-round cycles were shot until all 2,000 rounds were fired. This means that 3 magazines were loaded with 50 rounds (1 box of ammo) and then fired. The magazines were then reloaded and the cycle repeated. If the gun was judged to be "too hot" at any given point, it would be placed in the shade and allowed to cool until it was just comfortable to touch, but still significantly warm. As shooting went on, the gun was allowed to remain hotter than was comfortable to touch throughout much of the last 500 rounds.

    One round was lost during the normal process and then recovered at the end and fired, to conclude the test.

    At the end of the challenge, another 10 round group was shot using the same ammunition and set up as the initial group. However, this was taken at a point where the sun was around 30 - 45 degrees in the sky facing towards the shooter, changing the sight contrast slightly, and was not ideal light for shooting accurate groups. However, the conditions were judged "good enough".

    All rounds were documented with video and were shot strong-hand only with the exception of a small number shot by a friend during the test.

    Comments:

    There were two incidences of the slide auto-forwarding during magazine insertion, and a round was picked up each time.

    Towards the last few boxes, the magazine with the black follower was noted to be a slightly bit more resistant and sluggish than the other two magazines. While this did not appear to affect the function at all, it did mean that it was a little more difficult to load the last round on that magazine than with the other two. This is likely due to the other magazines being more "worn in".

    I was very surprised by a few things. Firstly, the Fiocchi ammunition was remarkably clean (outside of the barrel), and the internal components of the gun did not appear to get particularly dirty (judge for yourself). Secondly, I was surprised that the gun handled and shot basically the same from the first shot to the last, without any indication of reduced slide velocity or the like. Thirdly, the barrel was shockingly fouled by the end, with very significant copper fouling in evidence.

    The copper fouling was to such a point that one could see was seemed like gold dust misting out of the gun on each shot, glistening in the sunlight. This began to happen within the first 1000 rounds. While this does not appear to have affected the accuracy or function of the gun in any way, it was a rather interesting effect to see.

    This the first time I have pushed the lubricant used to such a heavy degree. While I was not attempting to burn off the oil, it is a lightweight oil, and such oils have a reputation for disappearing. However, this oil appears to not only have stuck around, but done an excellent job, with the gun feeling exceptionally smooth throughout the whole challenge. There was plenty of visible evidence of the lubricant still being on the barrel, rails, and recoil spring by the end of the shooting.

    When I say that the ammunition shot very clean, I mean, really clean. I am astounded at the brass that I collected. I included a number of photos of the brass, but it looks positively pristine. There is little to no evidence of carbon or other debris on the cases after they have been fired, and they look cleaner and shinier than most of my tumbled and washed brass that I use for reloading. One would easily mistake this brass for being once-fired, cleaned and polished brass, not brass that was picked up from the range as is.

    Addressing the specific issues I wanted to examine:

    1. I examined and collected nearly all of the brass that was shot, and none of it shows any signs of bulging or even stressed brass. All the brass seems to be in excellent condition, and so if there is an issues with the chambers of these guns, I'm not seeing any of it. Maybe I need to shoot faster?

    2. I chose Fiocchi brand ammmunition because it was explicitely mentioned in the Kabooms. The exact kind wasn't mentioned, but I went with what I usually would have used. The ammo is rated to be a little hotter than some 115gr loads, but not the hottest I've seen. It has a reasonable recoil impulse, and doesn't feel like a light loading. I assume the brass used is at least similar or shares similar specifications, since it is from the same company. That's the best I can do. I was unable to duplicate a Kaboom in the test. :-)

    3. I let the gun shoot while it was hot and steamy, and I examined the frame and chassis afterwards while cleaning for any signs of separation, warping, or the like. I was unable to discover any signs that the heat even began to have any sort of meaningful effect, and the chassis and frame continued to be mated tightly and showed no signs of warping or issues with the chassis not being held fast. Additionally, there were no signs of the slide velocity slowing down at any point, which would have been expected under cases of the chassis expanding/separating.

    4. Because of the surprisingly clean ammo, I don't know how much of a test this is for the slide sluggishness. I do know that with this ammo, the slide felt as slick and ready to move after the 2,000th round as it did from the first. There were no issues with slide movement or recoil spring force.

    5. I was unable to confirm any signs of pitting on the breech face. The breech face seems to be slick and as well formed as ever.

    6. With regards to pressure signs, OOB detonations, &c. I was unable to determine any significant evidence of OOB possibilities with my own gun. The primers were noted by myself and others to have a more "liquid" look to them than I might normally expect, but I have seen this elsewhere. The one possible case I have seen is that the primer strikes do not all appear to be as fully centered as in some of my other guns. I have included pictures of some of the primer strikes so that others can judge the degree to which that off-centeredness is of any concern.

    7. My APX trigger comes in closer to 4 - 5 lbs. than the rated 6 lbs.. This gave me some concern that the striker might have been compressed and worn out, or that there might be some concern over light strikes. The striker itself is slightly compressed in the gun from it's original state, but I saw no evidence of light strikes, and the gun performed without incident. The trigger remained tactile and distinct during the whole session.

    8. Beretta's lubrication policies seem to be working just fine. :-) It seems reasonable that if there is a problem with oil burning off or sluggishness of the slide, one may consider changing lubes, rather than dousing the gun.

    9. The ammo was very clean, but the barrel got very copper fouled, shockingly so, to me, who is relatively OCD about cleaning guns. None of my pistol barrels have ever been that dirty before. Despite this, I do not believe there was an appreciable difference in accuracy. Given the less ideal shooting conditions for the second accuracy group, as well as the fact that I had just shot 2,000 rounds, I think the second group shot for accuracy indicates that the gun was continuing to shoot about as well as it did when the test started. As noted above, the gun was spewing a golden mist on each shot. However, the trigger continued to feel good, and the rest of the gun felt slick and easy to work with. So, the gun wasn't that dirty.

    10. The gun was very comfortable to shoot, and there was no significant fatigue introduced because of the gun. I can't say this for other designs. However, I did notice that my finger got pinched a little bit over time and by the end, about a 1mm x 3mm blister had formed on the inside pad portion of my trigger finger between my index finger and the middle finger. A more judicious placement of my trigger finger under firing eliminated the pinch, but it is possible to do it. The pinch was not the result of the trigger safety blade, and the blade proved to be comfortable to use even after extended use and with it's slide protrusion.

    11. When the gun gets hot, the takedown lever also gets very hot. This means that a thumbs forward index on the gun can result in your thumbs getting pretty toasty, and potentially burned if you fire too fast for too long. The front of the slide also became very hot, and was not usable for gripping. However, the rear of the slide never exceeded a temperature beyond mildly above ambient tempuratures. Additionally, the slide release/stop continued to be very usable even when the gun was very hot. The frame and the rest of the gun showed no ill-effects from the heat. The carbon on the front of the polymer frame was hard to remove, and required a good deal of work. The trigger never became hot.

    After shooting it, I had to clean it. I used the Roger's kit again for this. The action of the gun and all of the rest of the parts showed normal carbon build-up and were easy to clean, though the polymer frame required a bit more scrubbing to get the carbon off of various parts.

    The barrel was another story. The Roger's Bore cleaning compound is an aggressive cleaner and I have never needed to do more than a single cycle of cleaning with the nylon bore brush (6 - 8 times brushed through the bore), a small wait time, and then a rinse and pull through of the Squeeg-E. On this barrel, I was seeing progress after three such cycles, but it was becoming abundantly clear the amount of gunk that was needing to be removed. I began introducing a bronze brush into the mixture to speed the process a bit, but this still required at least four or five more cycles that included more bronze brush work to get the barrel back to a mirror shine finish.


    Conclusion:

    I really like my Beretta APX, and I am now significantly more confident in it and my own "processes" than before. I have been unable to replicate or even find much evidence for me to worry much about some of the reported potential issues with the design or production of the APX, and I feel that I can now highly recommend it with little reservation.
    Last edited by arcfide; 05-09-2018 at 06:16 PM.

  2. #412
    I didn't realize that I couldn't edit my posts after such a short period of time. Here's the correct video documentation link: https://youtu.be/jCcM48vYe4U

  3. #413
    Member SilentSc0rch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangloss View Post
    - This pistol is the third Glock 19 that I've put through the 2000 round challenge and the first one to make it through without any problems. I really like this pistol.
    I'm a little relieved to see it's not just me. My Gen3 19 didn't make it passed 1,100 rounds on both attempts at this challenge but my Gen5 19 has done it twice (minus me not seating the mag once).

  4. #414
    Site Supporter
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    Dec 2011
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    Mississippi
    Quote Originally Posted by SilentSc0rch View Post
    I'm a little relieved to see it's not just me. My Gen3 19 didn't make it passed 1,100 rounds on both attempts at this challenge but my Gen5 19 has done it twice (minus me not seating the mag once).
    Congrats on getting through it twice with the same pistol! For this latest attempt, I swore off steel-cased ammo and only used Glock factory magazines. I can't remember for sure, but I think that I was the only person to fire the pistol during this last test.

  5. #415
    Gun, Walther PPQ M2, 9mm 4"
    Gun was cleaned, and lubricated with TW25B immediately before the test began. Gun was stock, aside from the Trijicon HD night sights

    Test occured from Nov. 28, 2017, to Dec. 22, 2017

    Total rounds fired, 2,200

    The gun was not cleaned once.

    Ammo was mostly (1800 rounds) speer lawman 147gr, but i also shot 200 rounds of 147gr gold dot, and a mix of boxes (200 rounds total) of steel case ammo, wolf, tula, silver bear, and brown bear.

    Stoppages, 1 (most likely ammo)
    Malfunctions, 0
    Breakages, 0

    Initially, the plan was to shoot all lawman and some gold dot. The 1 stoppage happened around round 250. I was about 7 rounds into a factory mag, loaded with lawman. I shot the 8th round, it fired and ejected fine, and the recoil impulse felt ok, but it failed to pickup the 9th round. This was solved by running the action, where the 9th round fed, fired, and ejected fine. I was unable to reproduce this failure, and even went so far as to mix up the various types of steel case ammo and the brass case stuff.

  6. #416
    Gen 5 Glock 17 w/ Trij HD's

    25 April - 14 May

    Ammo - 200 AE 124gn FMJ / 2,000+ish Dead On Ammo "DOA" remanufactured 124gn

    Stoppages - 10'ish

    All Stoppages were Failure to Feeds during slide lock reloads. Tapping the mag relieved all stoppages. All occurred w/ the reman ammo. No - I have not gauged it or measured the COAL.

    Malfunctions - 0
    Breakages -0

    Bought, wiped down, lubed. Confirmed function w/ 200 AE.

    The other 2,000 rounds were shot during a TPC course and the Hard As Hell 2gun match. Both of which took course in dry, dusty, 95 to 100 degree St. George, Utah weather.

    No stoppages occurred during any sling shot reloads.

  7. #417
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    South
    First time I have posted a 2000 round challenge.

    Pistol: Glock 19x
    Caliber: 9mm
    Ammunition: 150 rounds perfecta 9mm 115 gr, 150 rounds Winchester NATO 124 gr, 1200 rounds Winchester white box 115gr, 501 rounds angelfire reloads 115 gr
    Dates of testing: March 28 - June 8
    Total rounds fired: 2,001
    Stoppages: 1
    Malfunctions: 0
    Breakages: 0

    The angelfire reloads were donated by a friend. The only stoppage occurred with this ammo. One round failed to fire. It had a solid primer strike and would not fire in my glock 17 either so I don't count this against the 19x. This is my favorite glock that I own and I have complete confidence in it. I also shoot the 19x better than any other glock I own and this is backed up with a shot timer.

  8. #418
    Member
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    Nov 2016
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    Rocky Mountains
    Forgive me if this has already been addressed

    Can someone tell me the purpose of the 2000 round challenge?
    Random nobody.

  9. #419
    STAFF Tom_Jones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM

    2,000 Round Challenge

    While Im sure Todd posted about it here somewhere, this is his response to a why 2000 rounds? query posted elsewhere almost a decade ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG
    It's really pretty arbitrary. The Challenge was begun after so many people balked at my, shall we say, "less stringent" maintenance habits. In my experience, just about any serious modern handgun, using something like Miltec, should be able to reach 2k without cleaning, without needing more lube, and without stoppages.

    The thing many people "forget" is that the 2,000 Round Challenge included absolutely no adding lubrication to the gun during the whole 2,000 round cycle. You clean & lube before you start, and then do nothing but shoot the gun until you hit 2,000. If you add some oil or grease during the 2,000 rounds, it's disqualified.

  10. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    Forgive me if this has already been addressed

    Can someone tell me the purpose of the 2000 round challenge?
    So we can see what guns don’t suck.

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