Tactical Turtle

[jetfire]

To be honest, I haven't read the blog article yet. I was just responding to the question that was raised.

I would, however, argue that a less upright, more "turtled" stance is actually beneficial when shooting multiple (3-10) shots at a single target... which is far more likely in a !!FIGHT!! than a competition, obviously.

Actually, I absolutely agree with this. The tactical turtle is GREAT for controlling recoil. I starting using it when I was doing a long term test on polymer guns in .40 cal, because it helped keep the gun tracking better on single targets. In fact, for the majority of shooters who are interested in self defense, locking the support elbow and rolling the shoulders forward aggressively is probably a really good training decision, because there are very few shooting environments the average CCW holder will get in that you can't solve with the TT.

It goes back to the 80/20 ratio - 80% of the people who want to shoot better are going to see benefits from using a more "turtled" stance, if for no other reason than it offers tremendous mechanical advantages in recoil control. The other 20% of shooters are looking for performance above and beyond that are going to need another technique.

As I've been writing Gun Nuts for 8+ years now, I've seen my shooting stance go from Weaver to Iso to Tactical Turtle to aping JJ Racaza's stance. I've made those changes because I've realized that a change here or there is going to give me the next level of performance boost that I'm looking for. In 2011, I went from C-class in USPSA to A-class in about 6 months, and I was shooting a fairly turtle stance. Now I'm looking to break into the next tier of skill, and turtle doesn't cut the mustard on transitions and movement.

[GJM]

I am not sure there is a one size solution for all. My wife (5-7, 120 pounds) started upright, but when she was getting pushed in recoil went to the tactical turtle. It just never worked well for her.

SLG looked at some video of her shooting Bill drills, and recommended that she move her strong side foot/leg back more. Now she is quite upright, but with the strong side leg back, and she is shooting low 20's spits on, for example, the body shots on the FASTest. Now upright she has much better recoil control, easier transitions, and she is more comfortable shooting. The more upright position has also significantly speeded up her draw.

At Rogers in April, one of the instructors (weighing almost twice her weight) mentioned that her foot was further back than they recommend. She explained that it was for recoil control, and they said no problem, carry on. She finished second overall in our class, and broke into three digits on the school test.

[JHC]

I think it's just plain natural, too. I "tactical turtle," and was never purposely taught to. It's just what simply happens, naturally, when I hold a pistol in the isosceles stance with a forward lean.

In some of the references to it being a military thing, actually, with the body armor that the military has used up until just a couple years ago, turtling is pretty much impossible. Most any proper manual of arm, rifle or pistol, was impossible with many of the previous generations of body armor and helmets......example: I can remember simply not being able to sight through an RCO in many positions, given the combination of a short eye relief, long LOP, and debilitating neck guards/helmets that simply wouldn't let you get into position. I wasn't taught tactical turtling in the military, nor is it specifically referred to in MCRP 3-01B, nor demonstrated in the associated pictures of said manual.

It might be influenced by "monkey see, monkey do," as well. Ya know, how you subconsciously adopt the culture that you were raised in, sort of thing. Subliminal programming from seeing other people do it, or whatever.

Me too and I learned it from studying the doctrine of the day in the '90's when I changed from Weaver to ISO. I can avoid in a range drill but in matches when the beep sounds I'm back in it. Not sure I'm changing that in the autumn of my discontent.

[Hatchetman]

I do my share of turtling, due to Thai Boxing (TB), I suspect. In TB you want to protect the KO "buttons" on either side of your face, so as you throw a punch you keep said button behind the shoulder of your punching arm, with the other button covered by the non-punching hand. In other words, when done correctly, throwing a jab or a cross leaves the punching side half-turtled.

So what's this got to do with the price of peas in Paducah? When training game day stuff I try to find and keep consistent what commonalities I can in my stand up, impact weapon, and shooting games. TB's high hands, chin down, shoulders up, hand open, weak heel lined with strong toe shoulder width apart default amounts to startle response stance that transitions to a Weaver-ish stance pretty quickly. Since I have tens of thousands of reps TB reps in before I got serious about defensive pistol, I figure I should build on that muscle memory, hence my shooting stance looks pretty darned turtled.

[imp1295]

TGS,
Completely agree that at times it was an equipment issue. The old RBA made it impossible to look down the sights while prone. The new neck gorgets and such make it hard also. I guess I'm just lucky that we've been using an MBAV for the last eight years instead of the damned IOTV.

However,
Having to shoot both in armor and helmet and in street clothes I guess I am maintaining some consistency. As has already been adressed here, I agree that it would give one more SA to have your head up and Caleb did express that in the article and this thread.

I'm just interested in the perspectives given here and have placed a lot of credence in the varied opinions I've see in the past. Now, if we can just get the rest of the DoD to stop using "cup and saucer" pistol holds I think we would be in a pretty good place.

[roblund]

I end up using the Tactical Turtle some of the time, but it generally isn't intentional. I wear glasses everyday. Whether I'm practicing dry-fire with my eye glasses on or at the range with shooting glasses on, I've noticed that they have a effect on how I angle my head.

If I drop my chin just a tiny bit (unintentionally) during practice, the top my glasses start to come into my direct field of view. I have two routes for dealing with this. I can drop my chin even more and look over the top of my glasses to line up the sights (I can't say for sure, but the guy that Caleb used as a photo example seems like he might be doing this). The other is to lift my chin up and get a nice clear view through my glasses. Looking through my glasses has the added benefit that I can actually see things in the distance

It is possible this is anecdotal, and really just something that happens to me. I've noticed the same thing while reading a book. The bottom rim gets in the way a little bit so you adjust your head to move the glasses out of the way.

[orionz06]

There seems to be an offshoot from Caleb's successful article that wants to carry over to carbine shooting: http://loadoutroom.com/5695/the-over...b_source=pubv1

Not sure I agree with everything but some points are valid.

[justintime]

I turtle when shooting fast, if i'm popping things at 100 yards I usually don't.

[Clusterfrack]

There seems to be an offshoot from Caleb's successful article that wants to carry over to carbine shooting: http://loadoutroom.com/5695/the-over...b_source=pubv1

Not sure I agree with everything but some points are valid.

Yes it's interesting to see a deconstruction of Magpul-promoted technique. Some good points. But is the author suggesting this is good form?

[Surf]

There is a time and a place for many things. I am a continual proponent of a person attempting to show mastery of multiple skills be it technique, weapon etc... Being able to asses and to seamlessly transition or morph from one technique or style to another with seamless fluidity at the subconscious level is what I think we should strive to accomplish.

As for the article or blog on the rifle, some is more traditional or old school based ideology and technique that he professes, which has areas of validity and some of it seems to be not knowing what he does not yet know. No harm as that is normal and everyone is entitled to an opinion.