I'd be interested, but as Todd can vouch, I'm not getting paid for this, so it's not a priority for me. If you send me a gun, it could take months to get it back.
I'd be interested, but as Todd can vouch, I'm not getting paid for this, so it's not a priority for me. If you send me a gun, it could take months to get it back.
Great post
Originally Posted by Lomshek
Bill, I'd be up for loaning a gun (or three). The first M&P I bought which is about 3 years old has some common problems. Horrible accuracy with some loads, radically different POI for the same POA and some sketchy "high above POA" impacts. I'd have to do some digging to see if I saved the test case envelope with date on it. None of the ones below are quite 10" guns but they're far from what I'd call acceptable accuracy and have no consistency between loads.
All guns shot below are various M&P 9 FS's with thumb safety. One target includes a group I shot with my Ruger P94 which I've had for years and has about 75K rounds through it and a few groups with a Ruger 22/45 which I know to be an accurate gun to show what I'm capable of (2" or so 10 round groups at 25 yards).
All groups are 10 rounds fired from a rest at 25 yards by me with a dead center hold (top of front sight post centered on the target center dot). I hosted an AFHF a couple years ago and am in no danger of winning any trophies but can shoot fairly well.
Here's a photo of some test targets I fired after missing a number of shots on a 35 yard USPSA classifier I called as good shots. Those misses started my investigation into what was the gun and what was me.
Original barrel on original M&P (Ser# MRE). The left-most target was shot with a Ruger 22/45 and P94 to compare.
Replacement barrel on original M&P (Ser# MRE).
So in a funny twist the new barrel shoots WWB to POA and in a near respectable 5 1/2" group but HST 147 and Ranger 127 (plus my handload) to 5" - 7" groups and nearly 6" above POA.
I've since bought a second gun and my brother in law has as well with targets below.
Ser # DXE
Ser# HBK. Far left target is the Ruger 22/45 for a control group.
I'm at the point I was going to buy a spare locking block, weld it and the barrel hood up and recut everything for a tighter fit and longer lock up to see what it would do as well as crown the barrel.
I was also planning on installing an Apex FSS kit to see how much of the problem is the M&P curved trigger & pull which does not seem conducive to me shooting my best groups. As of now everything is pure factory.
The gun has gone to the factory twice for a new barrel about a year ago. The first replacement barrel didn't have the leade cut properly (or at all) so longer rounds like the Ranger 127 +p+ wouldn't fully chamber.
ETA - One thing that is clear is the complete lack of consistency from gun to gun in what shoots well or poorly and what POI a given load will shoot.
Bill, With that timeline I'm going to keep it/them and do some tinkering on my end. If at some point your business allows you to narrow the time to a month or so let me know and I'll send you one.
Thanks!
A couple questions to both of you (and anyone else knowledgeable) if you don't mind. My experience is limited to a few guns and I don't know which of my expectations are reasonable and which are not.
What kind of 25 yard POI change will a quality 9mm gun (2" at 25 yards as an accuracy standard) demonstrate with different loads (115 - 147gr, standard pressure to +p+)?
Would the same theoretical "quality gun" hold 2" groups with some loads and 6" groups with others (or what is an acceptable variance)?
The fact that each of my three guns shoots a different load to POA (sort of) and at least a barely acceptable accuracy standard (5"ish) is frustrating in the extreme. I'd like to have a single round that is acceptable in all of them. No way am I going to maintain multiple SD & competition loads for each gun.
My idea of acceptable with factory barrels is 4" or less with most quality loads or 2" or less with a fitted barrel.
Baring other fixes I'll get an Apex FSS trigger and Apex/BarSto barrel when it comes available. I personally like the M&P ergo's and want a thumb safety rather than relying on a crunchy overly stiff trigger for a safety factor hence my willingness to try and make the M&P work for me. I've fired a DA/SA well for years but decided to go for the shorter consistent trigger pull of a striker fired gun.
My barely-knows-what-he's-doing guess as to the inconsistent results. Based on what Bill reported a few pages back on poor machining quality some combination of powder burn rate, bullet weight and OAL allows some recoil & velocity rate to hit the sweet spot of everything coming together for a randomly accurate load.
On the subject of expectations what's the average POI change or accuracy variation at 25 yards for a factory Glock or XD? Being similar striker fired polymer guns I'd expect the M&P to hold its own against them.
Overall I'm wondering besides being more accurate with a specific load does a fitted barrel make better or worse (as compared to a factory barrel) the POI shifts and accuracy spread (best to worst shooting ammo).
This is a quote from a thread I started here a few weeks ago addressing/documenting some of the same issues:
Purpose/Theory:
As a civilian, it is my belief that I should be most proficient with the weapon I carry daily - a pistol. If I need to use it to defend myself or others, it will likely be in a public place and thus, due to the high probability of collateral damage, a high degree of accuracy is important to me. I don't much buy into the whole "belly gun" or 7 ft concept. Sure, that's a possible scenario, but so is a longer shot (and all of these "possibilities" are low-probability because I generally don't go into bad areas and have enough situational awareness to avoid getting into bad situations).
Anyway, all of that to give a background or end purpose for what follows:
As I've posted here before, I have a pair of Smith M&P 9's. One stays at home with a Surefire X300/DG switch, Crimson Trace Grips, and an AAC EVO-9. It is the "house" gun and is also the one my wife chose for "hers" and after shooting several different pistols, shotguns, and carbines, is the one she now has the most training with. It is a plenty accurate pistol and can produce 3" 10-shot groups at 25 yds.
Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr
The other M&P is my daily carry gun. It wears Trijicon HD sights, a Surefire X300, and has been stippled. I really love everything about the pistol except its accuracy. I sent the barrel, slide, and block (they were on another frame at the time) back to Smith for poor accuracy once already. When it came back with a new barrel, it did shoot better (in the 3"-4" range). Then, I swapped everything over to this frame and accuracy went to hell. As you'll see in the pics below, we're talking about an average of 6" groups from the bench. What makes it even more frustrating is that I can regularly produce the same size groups standing free hand as off the bench, which means I can out-shoot the pistol, right? I've researched aftermarket barrel options and they are not inexpensive, and results are not really conclusive either that they help that much. So, the question is, do I send the pistol back to Smith again and hope they hit on some magic, dump the pistol and get into another carry platform, or be okay with that accuracy (really, I'm not).
I began the range session (25yds indoor) with 10 rounds of Speer 124gr Gold Dots from my carry magazine, seated, and supported. Another thing I wanted to determine was the POA/POI relationship with the HD sights and different ammo. Hence, the "cross" to aim at. For all groups, the center of the cross was the POA.
124 GDHP by ASH556, on Flickr
Next, I fired 10 rounds of Federal HST 147gr, note both the windage and elevation shift. You'll see the group move back down and right with lighter loads:
147 HST by ASH556, on Flickr
Then, 10 rounds of Federal American Eagle 147gr:
147 FAE by ASH556, on Flickr
And 10 rounds of S&B 115gr (note the group is back down and to the right again)
115 S&B by ASH556, on Flickr
I then put up a clean B16 target and with the same methodology I fired a 10-shot supported group using Aguila 124gr FMJ:
124 AGUILA by ASH556, on Flickr
Seeing these results and knowing that I had previously shot similar-sized groups standing, free-hand at 25 yds, I decided to try my luck and shot this, again with the Aguila 124gr:
124 AGUILA FREE by ASH556, on Flickr
And these are past groups fired from the same pistol setup, 25 yds standing free-hand with Magtech 124gr FMJ:
9mm 25yd offhand pre-adjust by ASH556, on Flickr
9mm 25yd offhand post-adjust by ASH556, on Flickr
9mm 25yd offhand 5-shot by ASH556, on Flickr
So, what do you make of that? Crappy pistol? Send it back or sell and replace?
I also want to take a pistol class this year, but it seems foolish to spend money for good instruction knowing on the front end that my skill level already supersedes what the pistol is capable of.
Thanks for you input!
I want to disclaim a few points about the above post: In the first pic of the good group with the suppressed M&P, that is a different gun (I own 2 M&P's). If I could get my other M&P to shoot like that one, I would be 100% happy. Another point about that pic is that the pistol with the can wears stock sights, so I cannot see over the suppressor. My point here is that I cannot guarantee a 100% repeatable POA, and that might account for the 2 shots that some might call "fliers."
Because my 2 M&P's are the only 2 pistols I own (well, I also have an M&P22) I would be very interested in getting my "bad one" to shoot well. In fact, I just sent it back to Smith yesterday (second time that slide and barrel have been back). A pair of accurate M&P 9's and an accurate M&P22 to match would make me completely content with pistols.
Based on the data Bill posted earlier in this thread, and my results with my threaded barrel, I'm wondering if Smith put more effort into those so they wouldn't get a bunch of off-axis baffle strike warranty claims. Oh, and both of mine were purchased in March of 2012 from Grant.
Just read all 24 pages. I really really want one of these guns. And had plans on buying one. Every time I saw someone tcomplain about accuracy I would wonder why they just didn't get a aftermarket barrel and fix the issue. Now I see there is much more going on. It's a real shame too. And on a side note. I wish bi had a friend like bill, crazy smart!
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