The no look re-holster.....aka Murphy

[rsa-otc]

Now for my d-bag comment...
4. Seeing/knowing all of the above, after the incident has occurred, if you were the RSO/SO would you now go back and claim, "Oh, yeah, I did see him with his finger on the trigger during reloads, holstering, etc."??

I am not questioning the professionalism of these guys, b/c I don't know them from Adam, but what I'm saying is you had a complete failure on BPBH in so many ways that if you were anywhere near that disaster, had any ability to stop that disaster, and didn't, do you really want to jump in front of this guy's train wreck??

I understand where you are coming from. I know the two who are quoted as observing the bogger hook well off the bang button. One is a passing acquaintance the other I am friendly with and have shot & worked matches with. From what little I know of the one I'm most familiar with I would say he would man up and say finger on the trigger if that's what he saw. As JodyH observed earlier and I can attest to having worked the line at a match you can't stop or observe everything all the time. An RSO may not be at fault if the shooter at the last second inserts his finger in the trigger guard. In my opinion this RSO understands this and would step forward if that were to happen.

That said:
At this point their statements are so burned into their conciseness it would take film at eleven for them to say BPBH got his finger on the bang button.

[Mr_White]

Not to speak for him, but I think his point is that at some point everyone who has spent more than 30 minutes handling a gun has done this, and that absent awareness and deliberate effort to correct the tendency on the part of the person holding the gun it will happen (often completely unnoticed) and potentially lead to disastrous consequences.

If we took 100 cops off the street and 100 ordinary joes off the street and put them through stress scenarios I'd wager we would see about 175 people touching the trigger at inappropriate times without being conscious of the fact that they're doing it.

We are naturally inclined to touch the trigger but can combat it through training and deliberate attention.

What you wrote largely matches my own beliefs, but nyeti seemed to take a harder line, saying that everyone does it, period. That's the point I'd like to hear his clarification on.

[BaiHu]

....An RSO may not be at fault if the shooter at the last second inserts his finger in the trigger guard. In my opinion this RSO understands this and would step forward if that were to happen.

That said:
At this point their statements are so burned into their conciseness it would take film at eleven for them to say BPBH got his finger on the bang button.

Thanks for the update and the low down. I agree on all accounts. It's too hard to see everything in a dynamic setting like a match. This was BPBH's first match, correct??

[rsa-otc]

This was BPBH's first match, correct??

His first USPSA match; he has been shooting IDPA. Shouldn't have had a problem with the load and make ready part, extremely similar.

[Dagga Boy]

What you wrote largely matches my own beliefs, but nyeti seemed to take a harder line, saying that everyone does it, period. That's the point I'd like to hear his clarification on.

I am pretty well convinced that everyone does this AT SOME POINT. I think we can train to the point of minimizing this, especially in the training environment. Real world performance is something we have very little control over to see how people perform and how often this occurs. Another area we see this a lot is during match and competition stress to perform better and many get on the trigger earlier than they "think" they are. We very much try to make our students aware of this in order to allow them to correct it in training and do a better job of "hardwiring" the trigger finger register position so that we lessen the chances of this happening when a firearm is deployed outside the training or competition arena.

[ToddG]

Another area we see this a lot is during match and competition stress to perform better and many get on the trigger earlier than they "think" they are.

This is very true. I've got years worth of photos and video from the "super squad" guys at many major IDPA matches... and the number of times a finger touches the trigger before the sights are aligned on the target is substantial. I'm not looking to turn this into another thread about whether that's bad or acceptable, I'm simply pointing out that it definitely happens.

[Dagga Boy]

This is very true. I've got years worth of photos and video from the "super squad" guys at many major IDPA matches... and the number of times a finger touches the trigger before the sights are aligned on the target is substantial. I'm not looking to turn this into another thread about whether that's bad or acceptable, I'm simply pointing out that it definitely happens.

And that is "match stress". I am sure that a lot of the "not so super" folks are not only touching that trigger early, but "checking it" often as well. Now factor in darknes, fear, unknown, and real boogeymen and you can only imagine what happens when the targets aren't cardboard and the building is real and not a facade made of orange netting. This is an area where experience CAN help with those who train hard with solid instructors who know what to look for and then apply those skills in truly frightening environments. You can build up a means to substantially decrease the chances of needing your "woobie". On the other hand, we have a bunch of folks out there carrying guns and pointing them at people who will always be afraid, and lack confidence........and this is how tragedy's often happen.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I was recently caught doing this a couple of times in an active shooter class. This was while entering a room and driving to the blind corner, so I suppose the mindset was "shooting the badguy is possibly imminent", but I had no conscious awareness of my finger coming out of register when the instructor told me that it had. I am usually very mindful of such things, so my initial reaction was "No way!", but I had to choke that down and check my ego.

[Urban_Redneck]

The latest installment of as the beav blathers



enjoy

[ToddG]

I stopped listening when he decided to school me on the concept of legal negligence.