Ron Avery Talks the Science of the Draw Stroke

[ToddG]

To follow up on the walking analogy:

If you're the typical American you've walked tens of thousands of miles over countless hours in your life. You've walked on carpet, wood, tile, asphalt, concrete, grass, dirt, mud, sand, ice, snow, and who knows what else. You've walked in the dark, in daylight, and everything in between. You've walked fast, slow, with stuff in your hands, with different types of shoes (or no shoes), etc.

In other words, you've got a lot of time practicing pretty much all the real world walking there is to practice.

Contrast this with the draw stroke, which most people have not put thousands of hours into practicing in all the different possible conditions that might arise. The vast, vast majority of their experience is the shooting equivalent of walking on a treadmill in an air conditioned gymnasium. Take someone who's done a hundred thousand miles on a treadmill but never really had to walk on ice, point a gun at him, and yell Run! See how well he does...

[jlw]

It is interesting in this video of Rogers... He seems to be pretty quick to get the finger on the trigger while he is not exactly on the target...


I've observed that people seem to do this when they've made the mental decision to shoot... Ambiguity (Shoot/NoShoot video for example) seems to reel it in.

It is likely that the instructors at GPSTC tweaked the technique as they weren't teaching to be on the trigger that quickly, at least such was not my understanding.

[Sal Picante]

For those folks unfamiliar with the 4 count draw stroke:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OZfgutNufU

Yeah... Not sure Avery could optimize this:

[Cecil Burch]

To follow up on the walking analogy:

If you're the typical American you've walked tens of thousands of miles over countless hours in your life. You've walked on carpet, wood, tile, asphalt, concrete, grass, dirt, mud, sand, ice, snow, and who knows what else. You've walked in the dark, in daylight, and everything in between. You've walked fast, slow, with stuff in your hands, with different types of shoes (or no shoes), etc.

In other words, you've got a lot of time practicing pretty much all the real world walking there is to practice.

And even after all that untold amount of "practice" we still regularly trip, stumble, and fall. Even on not necessarily difficult terrain. So, to my way of thinking, assuming that with a LOT less time in practicing the draw stroke that we will never make a mistake and can easily change up what we do seems a lot to ask. Caleb and Todd have thousands (probably tens of thousands) of more reps in draw stroke practice than I do. If they get nervous about trying to make those changes on the fly (or actually make a mistake like Caleb did), then I certainly will not be immune.

Especially considering that if I fall or stumble, the worst thing that will most likely happen is embarrassment or a bruised posterior. The consequences of screwing up my draw with too much/too soon trigger will probably much more catastrophic.

[jetfire]

I mean, I guess I could bag on you about the above sentiment, right?

Rightfully so, since I admit that I was on the trigger too early and cooked rounds into the berm like some kinda n00b.

[Sal Picante]

Rightfully so, since I admit that I was on the trigger too early and cooked rounds into the berm like some kinda n00b.

I think the point is that sometimes, in practice, we break things/mess 'em up/relearn the right way. if you learned and made it through the SSN without getting early on the trigger, "mission accomplished!"

[Mr_White]

Interesting thread and discussion from everyone.

Here are some rambling thoughts.

I think there is a middle ground between expecting to only be able to execute simple techniques that cannot be adjusted on the fly, and expecting to be able to do overly complicated things under stress without prior preparation.

Someone here has made the point, and I think it was Todd, that either you think people can make decisions under stress or you don’t. The simplicity-is-best school of thought as a doctrinal force has a lot going for it (simplicity!) but it also can be taken too far, to the point of absurdity.

The fact is that people can and do make adjustments on the fly. That’s not the same thing as specifically planning to figure it all out in the moment with no prior preparation. A root technique (the draw in this case) may be our guide and the core of our planned action to get the gun out of the holster and on target, but sometimes you get a bad grip…and have to fix it on the fly. That’s just one example.

In partial defense of the non-pressout draws, I don’t think they are planning a different technique to deal with a more difficult target, they are planning to use the same technique and just spend more time at the end of the stroke aiming and pressing the trigger. So, compared to the pressout, and on this issue specifically, we are talking about modulating the speed and precision of the gun as it travels the horizontal line of presentation vs. modulating the precision of the gun once it is in the final firing position. Seems like the doctrine behind both techniques actually does expect us to be able to make small adjustments in the moment.

I personally agree with using a higher horizontal presentation than the straight holster to final position draw, but again that’s back to believing you can make decisions under stress if you run a lower line of horizontal presentation.

I note that anyone carrying appendix chooses to have two draws and to make a decision about which one to use depending on the circumstances. Otherwise they choose to have a less efficient draw for beyond-contact-distance problems or for contact-distance problems (always incorporate the 2 during an appendix draw or ignore the 2 entirely.) Here is what I mean: there is no #2 position in my, and probably a lot of the members’ here, appendix draw. If I want to go to the 2, I deviate from my standard draw. One could argue that that is expecting to make a decision on which technique to employ based on the circumstances, and I think it is. So I think more of us do take that position than realize we take that position.

The muzzle-tilted pressout has plenty of potential need for adjustment on the fly. Say you perceive a proximate threat issue while you’re in the muzzle-tilt segment of the pressout and it’s time for adjustment to a position not contained at all in the standard muzzle-tilted pressout draw, whether that is pulling all the way back to a high pectoral #2 or just to a muzzle-level #3. Neither position exists in the muzzle-tilted pressout draw that I have seen.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Ron Avery has quite a bit of LE field experience too, doesn’t he? He is not a tactically ignorant gamer in this discussion…

I will have to watch this video again. I thought it was good the first time I watched it, but a lot of what I was looking closely at wasn’t the draw technique itself but the way Ron remolded Cory’s technique bit by bit. I’ll have to notice if I think the draw is a holster to final position draw – I thought it was a mild 4-count draw.

[Sal Picante]

Rightfully so, since I admit that I was on the trigger too early and cooked rounds into the berm like some kinda n00b.

By the way, I think there are two things most of us are looking at here:

1.) The idea to get on the trigger sooner
2.) The idea that the gun can be drawn efficiently and still modify the draw if something needs to change a bit (like drawing higher, drawing on the move, etc)

I'm really looking at point #2... The discussion has shifted to how much people mess up since they don't practice... Not sure I've got more to add than "HTFU" and get to the range/dryfire/training.

[Sal Picante]

modulating the speed and precision of the gun as it travels the horizontal line of presentation vs. modulating the precision of the gun once it is in the final firing position

I think that latter is called "aiming"


[fixed spelling mistake]

[Mr_White]

I think that latter is called "aiming"


[fixed spelling mistake]

Don't condescend me with those technical terms!