Ron Avery Talks the Science of the Draw Stroke

[TCinVA]

I think that there is a question of judgement when people armchair quarterback a video of a guy learning a new technique...

...but finger on trigger when you're not on target is kind of a big deal.

[ToddG]

I think that there is a question of judgement when people armchair quarterback a video of a guy learning a new technique...

The student wasn't the only person whose finger was on the trigger before the gun was pointed at the target in that video.

I'm not armchair quarterbacking the student. I'm saying that the way that draw is being taught it doesn't adequately address, correct, or even seem to be opposed to putting the finger on the trigger at a point where I am not comfortable.

The "prep on the swing" technique has its genesis with old DA revolver training for law enforcement back when most holsters didn't even cover the trigger guard. Officers were taught to get their finger on the trigger in the holster as part of the draw and begin that long, heavy pull as soon as they cleared leather. And there are plenty of stories of officers putting rounds into the dirt in quick succession as they brought the gun up.

Now take that technique and add a sub-5# 1911 or Glock trigger that needs far less movement to discharge and you've got an even greater chance of a mistake. Caleb's experience is just one good example.

Being fast is important. I put more emphasis on draw speed than a lot of trainers I know. But outside the playground environment it needs to be done in a way that takes realistic downrange conditions into consideration.

[Sal Picante]

Absolutely. But that's dictated by what I see and isn't a different technique.

Just like a more traditional 4-point draw can stop at a different point depending on what's being done (extended vs contact distance), it doesn't require a separate technique, separate practice, and a decision making step as to which draw to use under the immediate circumstance.

I see that as dramatically different than having one draw that will work for high% wide open targets when you've got tons of room around you, one for when you need more accuracy and want the gun in your eye line sooner, one for when something is too close to drive extension right from the holster, etc.

I guess I really don't understand... You're saying that you change something dictated based on what you see: how fast to move the gun, how much time to allot to pull the trigger, etc... How is this different than pulling the gun a little higher when there is something in the way, etc?

I guess my point is that the nature of the draw isn't set in stone, it can adapt to situations... I'd argue that most of us change the level of focus on our sights based on distance to targets/difficulty of the shot. Practice and experience are key here. Why would the draw be any different in that regard?

[Sal Picante]

I really wish we could get a bunch of top level instructors/shooters into a thread to have a serious discussion about the draw stroke, without getting into dumb arguments about games vs tactical.

Do you think his point about minimizing change of your wrist angle, extra clearance from the holster make sense, when taken as part of more of a 4-stroke draw/press out?

I guess that depends on your implementation of the 4-ct drawstroke. If you're trying to get the gun higher on the draw it will be 100% opposed to "just clearing leather"...

[ToddG]

I guess I really don't understand... You're saying that you change something dictated based on what you see: how fast to move the gun, how much time to allot to pull the trigger, etc... How is this different than pulling the gun a little higher when there is something in the way, etc?

Really?

In one case you're going through the exact same motion you've practiced a million times, just faster or slower depending on the circumstances. If I screw up the speed all I've done is affected my first shot time or possibly missed.

In other other, you're having to execute a different motion. If I pick wrong I could AD, get my gun trapped by a barrier or person, etc.

In terms of building muscle memory and executing under stress, they're not even similar.

[jlw]

I have not attended Rogers directly. I have attended a course taught at the Georgia Public Safety Training Center that is run on a Rogers style range and by instructors who are graduates of Rogers.

The technique they taught in the class (and others) is that if the shooter has made the decision to shoot, the trigger prep could start during the press out/extension to the target with the pistol level to the target. It didn't start while in the holster or having just cleared leather. The shooter should be picking up the sights as driving to the target, and the shot should break almost in conjunction with reaching full extension.

A note on the trigger prep before the sights on the target - I shot a DA/SA auto and a DA revolver a bunch last year for work; immediately after I wrapped that up I switched over to a 1911. There were more than a few reps where I had an unintended "bang" because I overprepped the trigger before my sights were lined up. Sure, the gun was pointed down range and the round went into the berm, but it was a hard lesson to learn because I'd let myself get sloppy pulling an 8 lb DA trigger.

For the first seven years I was on the job, I carried an issued S&W 4006, and I drew to an immediate threat using the technique described above the quote. I didn't have an issue transitioning to the Glock and the M&P, but I simply have never been able to adjust to shooting a 1911. While I haven't put any shots into the berm, I have made some ugly shots. If I were to put everything else away and dedicate myself to the platform, I could get proficient with it, but frankly, I'm not interested to the point that I sold off my personal 1911 and mags. I do still have an agency 1911, but it sits in the safe simply to avoid the sally port grudge match that would ensue if I put it back in the armory.

[Sal Picante]

Really?

In one case you're going through the exact same motion you've practiced a million times, just faster or slower depending on the circumstances. If I screw up the speed all I've done is affected my first shot time or possibly missed.

In other other, you're having to execute a different motion. If I pick wrong I could AD, get my gun trapped by a barrier or person, etc.

In terms of building muscle memory and executing under stress, they're not even similar.

I think I just have a very different concept here than you do. I'm saying that the drawstroke is like walking: we've all practiced walking a lot and when there is something in the way, we just step over it...

[Sal Picante]

The technique they taught in the class (and others) is that if the shooter has made the decision to shoot, the trigger prep could start during the press out/extension to the target with the pistol level to the target. It didn't start while in the holster or having just cleared leather. The shooter should be picking up the sights as driving to the target, and the shot should break almost in conjunction with reaching full extension.

It is interesting in this video of Rogers... He seems to be pretty quick to get the finger on the trigger while he is not exactly on the target...



The image is a still from

I've observed that people seem to do this when they've made the mental decision to shoot... Ambiguity (Shoot/NoShoot video for example) seems to reel it in.

[ToddG]

I think I just have a very different concept here than you do. I'm saying that the drawstroke is like walking: we've all practiced walking a lot and when there is something in the way, we just step over it...

And people trip over stuff a lot more when they're under stress. You're also comparing a skill that everyone practices for thousands of hours per year. I read somewhere recently that the average person walks about 1,000 miles a year!

It is interesting in this video of Rogers... He seems to be pretty quick to get the finger on the trigger while he is not exactly on the target...

Yup. As I said, when I've been to Rogers, they've taught working the trigger from a much lower muzzle direction than I do.

[Al T.]

For those folks unfamiliar with the 4 count draw stroke:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OZfgutNufU