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Thread: Ron Avery Talks the Science of the Draw Stroke

  1. #11
    Member Sal Picante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    All due respect to Avery, but a philosophy of I can modify it in the moment is a lot easier said than done. The whole reason we practice our draw thousands and thousands of times is so that we can execute it without thinking and without slowing down for a decision-making step.
    Todd, don't you vary the speed of your "press-out" as the target distances are further?
    http://pistol-training.com/archives/3899

  2. #12
    Site Supporter CCT125US's Avatar
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    Todd, correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not the method taught at Rogers Shooting School with the addition of the draw stroke?
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by WIILSHOOT View Post
    Todd, don't you vary the speed of your "press-out" as the target distances are further?
    http://pistol-training.com/archives/3899
    Absolutely. But that's dictated by what I see and isn't a different technique.

    Just like a more traditional 4-point draw can stop at a different point depending on what's being done (extended vs contact distance), it doesn't require a separate technique, separate practice, and a decision making step as to which draw to use under the immediate circumstance.

    I see that as dramatically different than having one draw that will work for high% wide open targets when you've got tons of room around you, one for when you need more accuracy and want the gun in your eye line sooner, one for when something is too close to drive extension right from the holster, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by CCT125US View Post
    Todd, correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not the method taught at Rogers Shooting School with the addition of the draw stroke?
    Absolutely not. In fact, one of the lessons at Rogers specifically goes over the importance of having a draw stroke that clears anything that may be immediately in front of you like a low wall, steering wheel, etc. And they absolutely wouldn't tolerate finger on the trigger while the gun is pointed two feet in front of you.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post

    ... I don't want to be nearby when you have to do it for real.
    This I did not notice when I viewed the video.

  5. #15
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    I really wish we could get a bunch of top level instructors/shooters into a thread to have a serious discussion about the draw stroke, without getting into dumb arguments about games vs tactical.

    Do you think his point about minimizing change of your wrist angle, extra clearance from the holster make sense, when taken as part of more of a 4-stroke draw/press out?

  6. #16
    Site Supporter CCT125US's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Absolutely not. In fact, one of the lessons at Rogers specifically goes over the importance of having a draw stroke that clears anything that may be immediately in front of you like a low wall, steering wheel, etc. And they absolutely wouldn't tolerate finger on the trigger while the gun is pointed two feet in front of you.

    Todd, I did not frame my question properly, and I agree 100% with your response to my original question. To clarify, they advocate shooting at a specific spot (red spot) on the steel. However, is it not taught to be working the trigger as the gun is raised from the extended confirmed ready? The intended point of impact is the spot, but the plate is still considered a target? Therefore it is acceptable to work the trigger? The issue you take with the video, rightfully so is that the trigger is being pressed when it is not on a target area.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCT125US View Post
    Todd, I did not frame my question properly, and I agree 100% with your response to my original question. To clarify, they advocate shooting at a specific spot (red spot) on the steel. However, is it not taught to be working the trigger as the gun is raised from the extended confirmed ready? The intended point of impact is the spot, but the plate is still considered a target? Therefore it is acceptable to work the trigger? The issue you take with the video, rightfully so is that the trigger is being pressed when it is not on a target area.
    Yes, that's what they teach.

    No, personally, I am not fond of building reps of a technique that has me pulling the trigger before my sight is lined up with what I want to shoot. What is safe when you're shooting at a spot on a giant piece of steel in the clear downrange isn't necessarily safe when you're drawing your gun in a crowded movie theater.

  8. #18
    A note on the trigger prep before the sights on the target - I shot a DA/SA auto and a DA revolver a bunch last year for work; immediately after I wrapped that up I switched over to a 1911. There were more than a few reps where I had an unintended "bang" because I overprepped the trigger before my sights were lined up. Sure, the gun was pointed down range and the round went into the berm, but it was a hard lesson to learn because I'd let myself get sloppy pulling an 8 lb DA trigger.

  9. #19
    Member Sal Picante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    This I did not notice when I viewed the video.
    I think that there is a question of judgement when people armchair quarterback a video of a guy learning a new technique...

    There were more than a few reps where I had an unintended "bang" because I overprepped the trigger before my sights were lined up. Sure, the gun was pointed down range and the round went into the berm, but it was a hard lesson to learn because I'd let myself get sloppy pulling an 8 lb DA trigger.
    I mean, I guess I could bag on you about the above sentiment, right?

  10. #20
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    A note on the trigger prep before the sights on the target - I shot a DA/SA auto and a DA revolver a bunch last year for work; immediately after I wrapped that up I switched over to a 1911. There were more than a few reps where I had an unintended "bang" because I overprepped the trigger before my sights were lined up. Sure, the gun was pointed down range and the round went into the berm, but it was a hard lesson to learn because I'd let myself get sloppy pulling an 8 lb DA trigger.
    At a certain point the quest for speed with equipment not meant for it invites just this sort of thing.

    I'm all for speed and I'm all for safety. Being faster at putting bullets where they need to be is always better than being slower, whether the bullets are being fired at a paper target or a bad guy's face.

    Competitive shooters at the top levels have highly specialized skill that's the result of lots of practice. They have abilities the average guy does not have. When I look at a stage like Smoke 'n Hope I know I cannot process the visual feedback from the sights, even a red dot, to begin to shoot it at the level the top guys do. Unlike the uninitiated I know better than to blame their trick guns or the red dots as if I could do just as well were someone to hand me one of their pistols. I couldn't. There is a certain amount of training and repetition that has allowed them to process the visual input behind the gun faster, make the shot they need to make and then transition faster to the next target that allows them to make those incredible 2 second or less runs on that stage. I don't have that yet because I haven't done that level of homework.

    When I look at the practices of guys who have a much higher default level of skill than I do using something like a 1911 then maybe their technique isn't suitable for my particular circumstances, at least not yet. If I reach the point where I find that the way I draw the gun is limiting my speed as opposed to the other stuff like visual control and working the trigger properly then it might be time to switch up the draw technique.
    3/15/2016

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